Yes sir, you are correct.

Wow Gary, What a temper.

I am sorry. I have very little patience for ignorance cloaked as intelligence. A shortcoming of mine.

Again,What a temper.

I am sorry I usually stay out of these matters but BuddyJ you are just stirring the pot. Gary made a valid point that without guidelines there would be even more hack jobs out there than their already is. Now the fact of the matter is that wide plank has been known for longer that any one of us has been alive to be a mover. So if anything it is something that should be installed to the guidlines. Sure there are variations on how to install it but they are built on centuries old knowledge and methods that are far more proven than a guy named GoodHouse, BuddyJ or Joe Schmo’s procedure posted to a message board. At this forum we are giving newbie and DIY’ers advice, it is not a forum to pilot unproven, untested or experimental procedures as a person of inexperience is taking the risk. It is reckless and arrogant to do otherwise. If you view Gary’s position as tempered then so be it I view it as Gary stressing the severity of cutting corners. In any event let it die.

Ok guys, now that things have cooled a bit, here is what I was trying to post last night but hit the submit button before I pasted the text for this quote. The last two paragraphs are the only text I was going to show in my quote. I do not agree with anything else GoodHouse was saying.



Well said GoodHouse

Every thing you guys said to me was correct because it looked as though I was in agreement with him on the entire post.

I am very sorry for the mistake and will be more careful when posting.

Buddy

"I have very little patience for ignorance cloaked as intelligence"

Gary I assume that this is directed towards me. I have not come at you with anything derogatory and i dont think there is a need to make a pun towards me. The fact is you do not know me or my intelligence. What you do know is an opinion i stated in hopes of sharing a different belief than what is stated day in and day out on these boards. I also never stated you couldnt think out of the box. None of what i stated is a personal attack against you. What it is, is an opinion about installations that i believe to be founded.

Your response to my statements only prove that when you want to make a point about what is considered "right" & "wrong" you refer directly back to an organization which you believe to be grounded in deep roots of time tested procedures. So again i say to this, the institutions you are referring to are a business. Flooring is a business. Those are facts. A collaborations of words put together in a format in which people follow and then sold to those people are a business. Business are in business to do only 1 thing and that is to make money. Those are all facts.

My opinion on how to install the wide plank installation in fact only enhances the recommendations in place by the authorities you seem to work solely by. And your telling me it makes me wrong or inadequate because a business told you so. What if i told that business, that I had a plethera of people who were more than satisfied by the way i did the installation. Would that business tell me i was wrong? The truth is they can't. The reason they cannot is because I am in a business. And my business is to provide quality, professional, and long lived flooring to my customers and if i accomplished that task, I was successful.

You also keep referring back to "time tested procedures." Is it not reasonable to assume that there might be thousands of other installers that may do the installation in the same manor as myself and have been successful every time but may not offer their findings for sale or display to the publication business. So if that is the case it would be a time testd procedure that just may not be published. I will even go as far as saying what if in Europe whom had hardwood flooring way before the states might have different procedures. But only in the last 15 years has the world shared information like it does through the internet. You going to tell them they are wrong too because your book says so?

I just simply dont live and die by the book. We are all in business and conduct business in a different fashion. The only thing that must make all of our business' successful is for each and every one of us to have SATISFIED customers by any means necessary. If that simple yet arduous task was accomplished we have all done the "right" thing.


Now for another point that is completely indisputable. If your procedural book was so perfect and the foreknowledge of all flooring, what would be the point of people getting together and sharing ideas? There wouldnt be. People get together and share knowledge to improve their work. If every time someone has an idea and you say its not recommended by the NOWFA how will there ever be advancement in knowledge? There wouldnt be. So i implore you to tell me my opnions are incorrect by other means than your book said so.


KLS:
Again your taking a stance that i am inexperienced, a short cut taker, reckless, arrogant etc. Those were all your adjectives. You, just like Gary do not know me. I am not attacking you or telling you, you are any of the above adjectives. These boards are not to just give newbies and DIY's advice, they are the sharing of ideas and opinions concerning hardwood flooring. You are being close minded. I simply said there might be other methodlogies that work and produce the same result but may not fall in the exact recommendations of the NOWFA. You are acting as if that is impossible. I am sorry but i am not willing to accept that. If that was the case i should just read the publication and never try to hear or learn anything else.

FYI I just had the rep from Bostich tell me the reason I keep replacing expensive ( and time consuming ) parts in my Staplers is because they are DESIGNED to run at no more than 75PSI. Took his advise (which I admit seem illogical to me at the time) and imagine that .. no more problems with seals blowing and such. And absolutely no issues with the last 6000 ft or so including Br. Cherry, Oak, Am. Cherry and one small bamboo job.

Hope that info filters into usefulness for you.

By the way, Goodhouse, welcome to the boards ... yes we all fancy ourselves as open minded (at times _ and remember, as floor guys we are notoriously stuck in our ways and can very well be determined as down right grumpy ... I gotta make a living making my body do crap it don't wanna do and that makes for a painful living that just can make a guy a grouch even in the midst of doing what he loves. That being said, yes we all love and respect Gary and will run to his defence EVERY time, myself included....but please don't take anything personally, have some fun, share how you do things freely, and we too shall keep somewhat of an open mind between fellow tradesmen. We are all carefull to recite recommended "standards" (if there is truly such a thing) when giving advice. If for the best reason of having a third party "bad guy" to point at if something should go afoul. (nautical term )

....after all ... I'm sure you've read some of Perry's posts by now ... and we still like him ...


BTW : our company's specialty is wide plank flooring in period homes. Wide as in up to 21" !! We use Chemrex adhesives (but have nothing against BB) and nail/staple once every car length whether it needs it or not.
Seriously ... every 4" when combined with adhesive even with 15" wide planks is WAY overkill.

Goodhouse,
Perhaps I was somewhat harsh in my comments. For that, please accept my apologies. That being said, I think you miss the main point and objective I was attempting to make. All the pros here who offer advice to the novices and DIYers have an obligation to take seriously their questions and offer the best and most widely accepted methods of any procedure. Many of us have disagreed about how certain things should be done but it's been in the light of honest give and take and offering a sound explanation for our position. It's one thing to state that you do such and such but you need to be able to back that up with some friendly facts of why you believe it to be superior. We are a skeptical bunch and are not just going to take someones word for something, which was what you were asking us to do. Some of your statements did lack sound reasoning and if I may, I'll explain what I mean. These are your quotes.

The use of the word excessively denotes that even you think it is not necessary. Excessive basically means too much.

First you say they don't then you say they do but it doesn't matter.

Well, there is evidence. And this "more is better" logic is faulty. If 4" oc is better than 8" oc, then using your logic, 2" oc would be better than 4" oc. Then why not one every inch?

Sorry, I've been nailing floors down for 25+ years. If you're swinging the mallet twice as much, it's going to take longer. Maybe not much longer; but somewhat longer.

But that is exactly what you stated before.

This may be true for some other organizations but I only mentioned NOFMA. The mission statement of NOFMA is to set milling and grading standards for the manufacturing community, which are free to join or quit as they see fit. NOFMA also provides technical information on the proper care, installation and finishing of wood floors. It's in everyones best interest for the industry to thrive. The installer, the distributor, the manufacturer, the retailer, etc. If there were no NOFMA, one mills T&G would not fit anothers. How could we patch, repair or add on to floors when there was no uniform standard?

It's not what I believe that matters but the facts. NOFMA was established nearly 100 years ago, in 1909 to be exact.

I only refered to one organization, NOFMA. It was you that mentioned the others. Again, NOFMA is an association of businesses, not a business itself. It is a non-profit organization. Check it out for yourself. Even their web address is a .org. That's for non profits.

Never said you were wrong. I actually agreed with your own contradiction; that nailing every 4" is excessive. You said that yourself. And again, NOFMA is not a business; it is a non profit association.

I never said anyone was wrong. And it isn't my book. I had no part in writing it. And, FYI, it is available for FREE. Gee, I wonder how long NOFMA will exist selling their information for FREE?

It's NOFMA (National Oak Flooring Manufacturer's Association)

OK, I will. Nailing 4" OC (your original recommendation which I took exception with) is not needed, it's a waste of time and resources. It takes longer to do, uses more fasteners, and risks splitting the wood on the backside, which does happen whether you want to admit that or not. And since you are full spread gluing the flooring as well as nailing, let me ask you this. Which is holding the flooring better, the staples or the glue? Answer that with an explanation to your answer.
So Goodhouse, this has been an interesting exchange of ideas, has it not? And I look foward to more verbal jousting with you. si vous souhaitez!

Let’s not mince words here, the only adjective I used that where directed at you or any other person who would do such, where reckless and arrogant which it is if you lead a DIY’er (which this form is for) down a undocumented, unproven, and un-warranted path. I never argued the validity of your information I expressed a view of the damage you can cause to a diy’er by recommending procedures that the manufacturer will later use against them in a warrantee claim and believe me if they can find some wiggle room against the amateur they will exploit it.



No it is not, there is a form dedicated to contractors and installers expression of ideas and it is called Contractors & Installers Chit Chat.

Quite honestly I was more perturbed with my observation of BuddyJ stirring the pot. He has since posted an explanation as to his motivations and I apologize to him for my hast, but it appeared at the time that he was just trying to provoke Gary. As I said I usually stay out of these posts for this exact reason.

Guys, It was my posts that caused most of the harsh comments. I apologize to everyone envolved, especially Gary.

Buddy

Buddy,
You're forgiven and can come back and play with us.

On a different matter, how are things going down there with the reconstruction? I heard that in some areas, progess has come to a standstill and folks are still without shelter. What have you seen? And has it kept you busy? You doing alright? Fill us in.

This is true yet the Feds have 11,000 mobile homes designated for disaster victims rotting away on the grounds of an airport in Arkansas.

Don

First of all, Thanks Gary.

This place is a mess. It is getting better each day but it will be many years before we recover from this. There are many people still waiting for FEMA trailers to live in and have no idea when they will get one.
I live on the waterfront and had seven feet of salt water in my house for five hours. Lucky for us the waves hitting the house were only about two feet high when the water was that high so my house is still standing.
I had three 2000 model Ford vans loaded with all of our tools and equipment including a five year old Hummel and one two months old parked on what we thought was high ground. The water covered the dash on all three.
There is plenty of floor work here but many of the homes need major renovation and are not ready for the floor work. Many of the old historic homes are gone and will be replaced with condos.

I need a vacation. Baltimore may be a good place to be in April.

I wish I knew what we could do to help. I contributed to the disaster relief funds and that is all I know to do. I guess writing or e-mailing our representatives can't hurt but to be honest, I don't think our letters or e-mails get past the secretaries. It just SUCKS! In this land of ours that so many should suffer so long.