Amish made hardwood

It is currently Sun Nov 24, 2024 7:45 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: what size cleats?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 12:54 pm 
Offline
New User

Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:42 pm
Posts: 3
Hi,

I'm planning on installing 3/4" solid german beech to a 5/8" t&g plywood subfloor.

Are 1.5" cleats the right size to use?


Top
 Profile  
 

 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 1:21 pm 
Offline
Most Valuable Contributor

Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 7:42 pm
Posts: 4373
Location: Antioch, CA. 94509
You could use those 1&1/2" cleats but NOFMA calls for 2" fasteners for 3/4" flooring over raised wood sub floors. See pg. # 6

http://www.nofma.org/Portals/0/Publicat ... Floors.pdf


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:51 pm 
Offline
Prized Contributor

Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 5:44 am
Posts: 3509
Location: Austin
I'd be afraid the 2" would blow out the bottom of the 5/8, loosing 50% of their holding power, leading to many more squeaks then if they had used 1½" cleats.

_________________
When you want it done WRIGHT
www.AustinFloorguy.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:05 am 
Offline
Most Valuable Contributor

Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 7:42 pm
Posts: 4373
Location: Antioch, CA. 94509
Perry said," I'd be afraid the 2" would blow out the bottom of the 5/8, loosing 50% of their holding power."

What has never been verified Perry, is the assertion that when a staple penetrates through the bottom of the subfloor, that it loses some of it's holding ability. I am failing to see is any science behind this. A 15.5 gauge staple has a much thinner shank than a nail or a cleat and does not "blow out" the lumber when it exits the backside. At least not to the degree a larger shanked nail or cleat would. So, please explain how having a 1/4" or so of staple/fastener exposed on the underside hinders that staples ability to hold the flooring as well as a shorter staple? Also, if the installer wanted, they could layout the joist locations and make a good effort to nail to those as well as in between. And if NOFMA approves 1&1/2" fasteners for nailing down 3/4" solid over a 3/4" plywood underlayment over a slab, they're concern is that the fastener does NOT penetrate through the backside of the underlayment, which would damage the vapor barrier underneath. But when recommending fasteners for that same floor over a crawl space, they recommend 2" fasteners. Same flooring, same subfloor. If 1&1/2" is "just as good", why recommend 2" at all?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: what size cleats?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:39 am 
Offline
Prized Contributor

Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 5:44 am
Posts: 3509
Location: Austin
ridley wrote:
Hi,

I'm planning on installing 3/4" solid german beech to a 5/8" t&g plywood subfloor.

Are 1.5" cleats the right size to use?




I'm pretty sure he was talking cleats and not staples.



Did a google trying to find some on-line documentation of the information I got in NWFA inspector training. I did find on-line, a lot of posts about the fastener penetrating the subfloor is the cause of squeaks, but nothing about holding power, yet. A lot of the links google brought up, are crashing my browser??????

_________________
When you want it done WRIGHT
www.AustinFloorguy.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:07 pm 
Offline
New User

Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:42 pm
Posts: 3
I am going with cleats - the manufacturer recommends them over staples and I have humidity fluctuations.

The manufacturer, Pollmeier, says to use either 1.5" or 1.75" cleats. Never mentions the 2" size. So I am at a loss. Go with the manufacturer or go with NOMFA?

I am also concerned that 2" cleats would penetrate the subfloor.

Could the tongue on this product be lower than other brands? It measures 7/16" (measuring from the bottom of the board to the top of the tongue).

Thanks for your help.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:28 pm 
Offline
Most Valuable Contributor

Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 7:42 pm
Posts: 4373
Location: Antioch, CA. 94509
Always follow the manufacturer's instructions. NOFMA's recommendations are "generic" and typically refer to NOFMA member unfinished flooring. With the world economy, flooring comes from all over and can vary in design and specs. The tongue on your floors may very well be designed differently. I have seen mention of 1&3/4" cleats and staples but haven't ever seen them in my distributors.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:07 pm 
Offline
Newbie Contributor

Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:02 pm
Posts: 16
In Bollinger's book, he recommends driving into the joists when possible to make a more solid fllor. Even 2" cleats into 3/4" floor and subfloor is barely going to reach the joists. Do you pros out there try to hit the joists?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:59 pm 
Offline
Prized Contributor

Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 5:44 am
Posts: 3509
Location: Austin
The angle of the flooring fastener, is not going to let the joist provide any help. No penetration into the joist worth mentioning, unless your going to use a 3" long nail.

_________________
When you want it done WRIGHT
www.AustinFloorguy.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:44 pm 
Offline
Most Valuable Contributor

Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 7:42 pm
Posts: 4373
Location: Antioch, CA. 94509
Quote:
No penetration into the joist worth mentioning, unless your going to use a 3" long nail.

Or you have 1/2" plywood subfloor! :shock:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:10 pm 
Offline
Newbie Contributor

Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:02 pm
Posts: 16
Checked the bottom of my subfloor; the 2" cleats do blow out the bottom of the plywood, but the pieces are mostly just the size of toothpicks. There definitely isn't enough cleat exposed to grab the joists. Luckily, I don't seem to have any squeaks.

P.S. This is with 3/4" CDX and 9/16" engineered.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:05 pm 
Offline
Most Valuable Contributor

Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 7:42 pm
Posts: 4373
Location: Antioch, CA. 94509
Quote:
This is with 3/4" CDX and 9/16" engineered.

Now imagine with 3/4" plywood subfloor and 3/4" solid flooring. Almost zero blow through with 2" cleats or staples.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:50 am 
Offline
Newbie Contributor

Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:01 pm
Posts: 22
As long as there is enough subfloor for the fastener to go into is there any downside to using a 2" or 2.5" over 1.5" or 1.75" if the guage of the fastener remains the same?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:06 am 
Offline
Most Valuable Contributor

Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 7:42 pm
Posts: 4373
Location: Antioch, CA. 94509
That's what we're trying to determine. NOFMA does recommended when face nailing the last few courses on a 3/4" install, to locate the joists and nail into those using casing or spiral shanked flooring nails. I think it's over kill unless it's 5+" wide plank flooring. I do know using too short of fasteners will cause failure in terms of loose, noisy flooring.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 12:45 pm 
Offline
Newbie Contributor

Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:01 pm
Posts: 22
Gary wrote:
That's what we're trying to determine. NOFMA does recommended when face nailing the last few courses on a 3/4" install, to locate the joists and nail into those using casing or spiral shanked flooring nails. I think it's over kill unless it's 5+" wide plank flooring. I do know using too short of fasteners will cause failure in terms of loose, noisy flooring.


I don't have the floor experience, but just thinking it through from general experience with plywood and wood, I don't see where there would be blowout on the underside of a plywood subfloor. It mainly compresses to make room for the fastner. The modern air powered injected fastners are thinner than the nails of old as well, and the speed the shoot out makes for a clean entry. Just IMHO. I've got 16, 18 and framing nailers - maybe I'll shoot up some scrap 3/4 inch and 1/2 exterior plywood to see what happens. :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group

phpBB SEO