Lumber Liquidators sold us some very beautiful Natural American Cherry about two months ago. We are letting them install it for us through thier Installer Services. The contractor has 10 years of experience and seems very honest and definatly is reliable for the quality of work he does -good reputation.

Problem is that we have particle board over plywood. The house is 30 years old and has always had carpet over this subflooring. The floor is the ground floor.
Our installer suggested and recommened that we install over the particle board, that it would save us money, and pointed out what seemed to be minor drawbacks such as more squeeking ..but that was all he warned us about. We obviously went with his advice although he did offer to do the job by replacing the particle board and replacing it with plywood.

The install is now 85% completed and we have some sereous creaking and cracking sounds already.

I have since been reading about proper subflooring for hardwood and learned how bad particleboard is for hardwood flooring. All of these things he never warned me of. I need to mention at this point, if it isn't glaringly obvious, that I rely 100% on my installer to do a quality job for me because I do not know the ins and outs on flooring. I feel a bit screwed by his advice ..although he's a nice individual I feel mislead. I would like to believe it was not intentional that he mislead me but I honestly don't know. Maybe he believes his work is good enought hat I will not have an issue. This by the way is what the sales associates told me, that his advice is sound, although they said plywood is better.

I was not told particle board was not adequate I was told it was not the best choice.

Half of the job is paid for.


The point of this post is this: What is recommened At This Point?


Tell it like it is, please. I can handle it.




Thank you all.

He should have told you ... The only way I can bid this job is to replace the particle board. A particle board subfloor is not adequate, it does not provide enough grab for a nail down or staple installation. Saying "it is not the best choice" is sugar coating it, and misleading.

As a professional ,he or any installer should expect nothing less than you depending on him 100%.

If the floor sounds like that now, expect worse. IMO the installer needs to remove the floor, salvage any wood ,if possible,& purchase any extra wood needed. You would need to foot the bill for replacing the subfloor. It's a total bummer for both of you , unfortunately sh_t happens.

Most likely, it is the particle board causing the problem. BUT, I think before continuing, you should also check the milling of the floor in case it has an influence on the squeaking.
But at any rate, the floor will have to be removed in order to correct either of these issues.

Well, there is really, again, no easy answer. Particleboard is definitely not the preferred choice. It should definitely not be relied on to hold the cleats/staples/nails. He most likely used longer cleats that went through the particleboard and into the subfloor, which is wood I am assuming (either ply or 1x6 or even 2x6)? But he did give you the option. He probably felt he was going to lose out the job to someone else because of this and offered you a way to save money. In this economy there is a lot of pressure. You, as a homeowner, are assuming the role of general contractor/remodeling contractor and need to do your own research and educate yourself, especially if you want to save money. He gave you the option, you forewent it, and thus it should be your responsibility to amend it. The squeaking will only get worse.


edited by admin: read the rules

I hate to sound like a hard a__, and I'll be the first one to stick up for an installer, and ya, things are tough, but re-read the post.

"Our installer recommended and suggested that we install over the particle board"
"And he pointed out minor drawbacks"

I would of loved to be a fly on the wall during this conversation. "He gave the homeowner a choice". Ya right, he talked him into going over the particle board. I've seen and heard it time and time again when an installer convinces a homeowner. Especially when times are tough, he would rather shoot craps than lose the install. Sure sounds to me like this is what went on,(re-read the entire post). Ya there's a lot of pressure, but you practice this method, your holding the ball.

Matthias, Where did you come up with the idea that the Home Owner purchasing a hardwood floor from a company with licensed installers is a GC ???? This is not his responsibility. Yes, it's a good idea to be informed. But ultimately he hired a professional company to trust.Where did the homeowner give you the idea he wanted to save money? And sacrifice the job being done right?
I wouldnt assume the installer used long fasteners to bypass the particle board.
Why did the installer continue the install with this "creaking & cracking problem"?

Ya know Bostiks says you can glue wood to particle board with their adhesive. Never done it though.

Those poor LL installers are told they must bring in 90% of the referrals or else. So they will do almost anything to get the job. But then LL will abandon them and throw them to the wolves if theres any hint of floor failure.

Bostik over particle board is stuck for the duration. Your gonna tear up the particle board, if you have to replace a board.

Exactly... with LL & "their" installers, (Licensed Subs)

I have never seen a manufacturer say it is OK to nail down over particle board. I never have and never will. As the installer it was up to him to do the job correctly or be willing to eat the job. Just like other discussions on this board as the professional he should have insisted on removing the particle board or walk on the job.

Which Bostik product says you can glue over particle board?

Best, BST. They state:
" Use Bostik's Best over all substrates common to hardwood flooring installations including: concrete, plywood, particle or chip board ( underlayment grade ),well bonded vinyl, ceramic tile, cement backer board, gypsum patch/underlayments (dry, above grade),cement patch/underlayments, radiant heat flooring, cutback residue, and terrazzo".

Haven't tried a few of them, goes good with ham & eggs too.

Yes but in this situation least it's over plywood and it's not the subfloor itself. I'd never do it myself. I guess they put that in there to sell more glue.

This situation is particle over ply. And dont know but I'm guessing 3/4 hardwood.

Done a few with Best over particle in mobile homes, (not 3/4 ofcoarse), I wouldn't shy from it.

Oh man, manufactured homes...the old ones are the worst. All that paneling with the strips that cover the seams in the paneling and the stapled down crapet with 2 inch staples. STOP IT, brings back bad memorys.

Ya, Their a whole different animal, there's actually some really nice ones out there. But I'll never forget...few years back, got a call for an estimate, drive up and it's this trashed doublewide. The folks were looking at wood that cost me around 9 bucks, and wanted to do the whole place. I still believe the total on the job was more than the home was worth. I ended up getting the job ( Always careful not to hurt myself overqualifying, or in this case pre-qualifying!

Bottom line, the particle board should have been removed. I would agree with the earlier posts; the installer should be responsible for the tearout of the hardwood already installed and the cost of replacement material for any hardwood that can't be salvaged. The homeowner should be responsible for the cost to remove the particle board and install plywood. If the installer refuses, or LL balks on making it right, they aren't going to win unless they had the homeowner sign a waiver. Without a waiver, installation constitutes acceptance of the subfloor and jobsite conditions by the installer, and he is ultimately responsible.

Right On bw