Ken, it's about this hard. http://www.flickr.com/photos/13772863@N08/4047763190/

Based on at least the education I have garnished over the past 2+ months of researching hardwood for the majority of the flooring in my ongoing remodel that makes sense. It stands to reason that when it comes to Janka hardness it is not so applicable to engineered and the wear layer material/substrate combination makes up its durability.

For example in the case of a Walnut engineered floor with a eucalyptus substrate a true Janka test may actually fair better due to the greater density of the substrate. In theory as the metal ball pushed it's way through the Walnut wear layer it would then meet more resistance with the more dense substrate ending up in less penetration than solid Walnut. However, of course this wouldn't mean that for the average dropped can of baked beans you wouldn't potentially end up with a decent gouge in the Walnut and if deep enough some eucalyptus substrate smiling back at you.

In my case I am not so concerned about the density of the wear layer from a durability standpoint but rather from a needed moisture content standpoint. Basically, one of the reasons I chose against laying a 3/4" solid down is the low humidity here in the Phoenix area. Engineered tends to handle this better but in the case of a super dense wear layer the low humidity still can wreak havoc on it and cause significant face checking, etc. I had originally fallen in love with BR-111's Machiatto Pecan but since it is native of one of the most moisture baring rain forests in the world it has to be incredibly dense in order to grow to 100+ feet vs. just bending over like a rubber plant. Thus, at a Janka of roughly 3500 there is no way I'd install it here in the desert without some serious relative humidity compensation!

Well if I may.....Ken is supposed to come out with a newer RH article if he gets off his duff. I have on on my website. There's an easy way to humidify out here, I'm in Tucson.

As far as Janka is concerened if memory serves correct it is true than engineered is not test with this method, just the species and also I believe it is the thickness of a 2x4 at least or maybe a 4x4 so the substrate underneath has no effect what so ever.

I tell pppl yes the hardness does have a lot to do with indentations but in reality your walking on the finish which is the part that really takes a beating.

I have yet to see a native mesquite species in an engineered. I've done a Schon Brazilian mesquite but that one was really from a different species

Gettin' closer. Could be August now. Lottsa messes to cleanup up from the current site structure.

Engineered Mesquite. There is a company...can't recall...maybe Rare Earth that will manufacturer anything for a price. There's your engineered Mesquite!

http://www.rare-earth-hardwoods.com/flooring.php

Where? ya got me all excited. I could not find it on the drop down list. How bout that worlds flooring floor? How'd ya like to put that puzzle together

I said they'll do anything for a price. Meaning it's starting from scratch including finding a source, kiln drying etc. That was five years ago last I talked with those guys.

Thanks for the follow-ups guys. Mesquite flooring would definitely be unique and quite beautiful but it is likely beyond my price range. I did go ahead and pull the trigger on the BR111 Zinfandel Tigerwood and it arrived on Monday. Three boxes had slight damage to some of the boards contained within so this was noted on the bill of lading and BR111 is sending me a replacement box which should arrive on Wednesday. Here's a shot of the 42 boxes (1300 sqft) acclimating (I got the inspiration for the stacking from the acclimation posting on the hardwoodinstaller.com site )



Not pictured is the 28' of staircase nosing I bought as well to be used by the installers on the "step down" areas for the sunken living room and the original box I purchased (which is totally acclimated at this point) to see what the product looked like vs. just the 6" sample. I am hoping to get the install started in a couple of weeks but right now there is the good old controversy of hardwood vs. cabinets installed first. Also, I found out yesterday that I may need to have the new front door in first as well.

Excellent way to stack Bloozeman. But if your going to acclimate with opened boxes you should cut off the tops of the box. Acclimating with just the ends open can cause the ends to gain or lose moisture content more that the center. That can cause a lot of frustration when installing. Hate to admit it but been there done that.

That said if your Rh in the home is off the mark for installation requirements per manufacturer the planks can bow and twist pretty easily. This is why many manufactures want the boxes left closed and the temp and rh brought into the zone. Best way I believe is to get the rh in the home to levels that match up with the moisture content of the flooring and also test the subfloor moisture content (if wood) to make certain levels are within the parimeters like 2% of the wood flooring moisture content.

Thanks for the tips. I actually was instructed by BR111 to open the ends of the boxes. Should I not follow their advice? The installation instructions did not specifically call this out, i.e., opening the ends of the boxes but when I called to talk to their customer services to inquire about proper acclimation they said I should do this. Now I am a bit confused.

If you called Br up and questioned them they would tell you not to believe anything you hear on the internet

I hate to start trouble but....Most manufacturers you can talk to 5 different people and get 5 different answers It would be nice if manufacturers were a little more thorough on their "instruction sheets" on topics similar to this. After all their word is SUPPOSE to be the gospel , they ARE the source of supposed warranty. Since most of them are so wishy washy , I would tend to take advice from someone with years of hands on experience, and use common sense. In this situation its only common sense to me that if you open just the ends of the cartons, the entire plank or bundle is not being acclimated equally.

The funny thing regarding just opening the box ends is that it indeed somewhat defies common sense. I initially had stumbled across the "instructions" on a remodeling site in which a poster had a thread going regarding her BR111 Brazilian Cherry flooring install from last year. Within it she indicated that BR111 told her to open the box ends. I had pulled down the installation instructions weeks ago from the BR111 website and of course it did not indicate any such thing hence my phone call to them AND follow-up phone call last Thursday to see what they said. I may have gotten the same rep twice but she provided the same instructions: 1) remove the plastic and 2) open the box ends.

Given the second instruction regarding opening the box ends does defy logic I decided to go ahead and close them all up. So Friday I took the couple of hours to do so. Thus, the majority of the boxes only had their ends opened for about 48 hours and they will all be acclimating in the state they are now in for another 7 days prior to install. So here's the pile again after common sense prevailed:



My question now is whether or not I should take the plastic wrapping off of the staircase nosing. Common sense says yes but after doing so I realized that now I had to be careful moving it around, etc. so I didn't mess it up. Thus, unless you guys tell me to remove the wrapping on the other pieces I will probably keep in on until the installers actually use it. So does the plastic go or will it have acclimated over the 10+ days it has been sitting in the house prior to the install?

Also since this is turning into a real labor of love (the 43 boxes weigh over two tons in total) I plan on resorting them Thursday or Friday, i.e., shifting the ones on the bottom and vice versa to ensure even acclimation from that perspective. Considering that I have moved them all 4 times now and that will make number 5 I am definitely getting a workout at least from this project.

Sealing them back up is good and all, but when you keep them sealed up your only acclimating to temp, not rh. Therefore like I explained before you would need to make certain that ambient air inside matches up with the moisture content of the wood. In that case you would really need a pin type moisture meter and a thermo hygrometer..

Have the installers come over to check the moisture content of the flooring and ambient interior readings of your house to see if they match up? If not you better ask them why not.

Stephen,

Thanks for the explanation. I thought since the cardboard "breathes" over the 10 days the contents would evenly adjust to the RH. So is your ultimate recommendation to just cut the tops off of all of the boxes or just to perhaps open them up and place them around the floor vs. stacked? The only concern I have with cutting off the tops of the boxes is that this causes them to loose some of their supporting structure and given the boxes are 7' long moving them around afterward (which the installers will definitely need to do) makes it a bit tough and may lead to damaged contents. It seems to be a catch-22.

The installers are coming by later this week to do some of the RH testing, etc. I have a hygrometer that indicates the RH is in the low to mid 30s which should be in a decent range. As you pointed out though the big question is whether the wood has adjusted to that or if it still has a higher moisture content given that it came from FL. BR111 recommended a 7 to 10 acclimation period for AZ so I intend to go the full distance on that. The one red herring is they are shipping me another box to compensate for some of the damage that took place with the original shipment. It is not due to arrive until Thursday according to FedEx so I am assuming I will definitely need to open it all the way, etc. to ensure it's acclimated by early next week.

The bottom line is I am just trying to do things right given the investment and that I want a resulting floor I will lover for years to come. It just seems there is so much contradiction when it comes to certain aspects. Heck I've even was told at one point in time that engineered flooring doesn't even need to acclimate.

-Ray

Forgot to add that the install is taking place over a concrete slab so the installers will be taking readings of that. The living room is sunken by about 7 inches so technically I guess that makes it "below grade" so I am going to pay particular attention to the readings they get in it and their plan. I may just go ahead and pay more for using one of the BR111 recommended adhesives that includes a sealer for that area.

-Ray