OK, gang up on Perry, I can take it!

I'm talking construction of the board, under the veneer and trying to sell it.
Not what it looks like installed.
What makes this new construction technique better? So I can sell it to my client, that is sceptical by looking at the samples.

Hand 3 to 4 samples to a client...

Mannington Tradewinds or Charleston
Bruce Studio B
WFI engineered
Kahrs mega strip

Let them inspect the flooring and make a decision.
Now give those 3, to an installer that has been around awhile for his opinion.

Which floor is the homeowner going to purchase?

It is my understanding from my local retailer that Kahrs strip/megastrip (2ply) is outsourced, thus the difference in construction.

If any of you havent noticed, the nicest Kahrs floors IMO are the Doussie Dakar, Merbau Bankok, and BC Sao Paulo. These have yet a different constuction (multiply) and thickness (9/16") than the rest (3ply soft core 5/8").

The question is, what does this mean to the installer? What does this mean to the homeowner? As a homeowner I have my own prejudices based on my experience, but I bet not many folks even care. In the end you are betting on Karhs reputation to make good on what they put their name on... and so it goes with WFI.

You wood guys with five years experience that did carpet kill me as well. OK add a couple years for the online experience.

Did carpet? Me? Yea for six months--- 15 years ago--glad I saw the light. Wasn't any fun being a grunt/gopher at the age of 32 and going nowhere.



Well said! By the way that WFI job has been finished and I hear the customer couldn't be any happier with the floor he purchased. Yes we've been in touch. I only wish he would post his comments about the product and finally rid all these accustations about WFI.

My un- solicited $0.02 worth.


I'm bustin a gut here!!
I'm pretty limmited. Thank God for simpltons like me who make a fine living with 3/4" SOLID REAL un-finished sand on site TRUE HARD WOOOOOD floors. My favorite pre fin engineered wood and favorite carpet for that matter is the stuff i ripped out and tossed into a trailor and hauled to the dump while replacing it with the stuff God grew right outa the ground. I know that sounds pretty neanderthal, but I'm a simple man that leaves those kind of worries to the guys subbing for the box stores. No offence meant here, maybe I need to learn some of this stuff if I'm gonna catch up to the demand of the 21st century, but as long as there's a healthy demand for my product and service I'll have a pretty decent living.AND NO, I don't pass my ignorance on to the customer when they ask my opinion .... I send 'em to hardwoodinstaller.com for research so they can make an educated decision.

We baited them all right! We chummed the waters good. Now lets use artificial lures to catch our fish.

It appears that your memory is not serving you well, or perhaps you do not wish to recall accurately what WFI stated. WFI stated that they offered to refund the floor. However, after careful and thorough inspection and analysis, the floor was deemed to be first quality and clear grade by several authorities. The floor material was not refunded and the floor was installed.

It looks, fits, and functions great! Absolutely beautiful wood, and a super installation job, all approximately 1600 sq. ft. of it that was installed after this thread was opened. There is still a little more to go.



All that was needed for this wood was an installer who is actually interested in doing the job, doing it right, and putting it down. Interestingly, this recent installation of the remaining majority of this WFI product is completely free of any popping, movement, and gapped, uneven and jagged cuts, which cannot be said for the approximately 250 sq. ft. that was previously installed and discussed in the deleted earlier portion of this thread.

Your unfounded and speculative claims with regard to a soft pine core and thin veneer is way over the top, given that you never have seen the wood in question. The reality is that the core is made of rubber wood, as are the majority of cores used in 3-ply construction, and the veneer is indeed a full 1/8" veneer as specified for this product.

Yeah yeah, I seen cheap carpet thats hacked in look good at first as well.

Time is the decisive factor.

As far as engineered goes, Out in the land of concrete and remodel its the best thing going. Unless the height factor is figured in during construction, the extra labor for a sleeper floor or shootin plywood hardly ever is the road taken by consumers. Not many have the budget for the solid.

I would digress to the article most recent Hardwood Floors magazine for a honest comparison.

My reply to this post was not to defend William or defend how this was handled.

I have never met William, and actually we don't see eye to eye about many things.
I have no idea what skills he has or doesn't have. If he is a hack or not. Although he has posted about doing out of spec work in the past.

Had it happened to me, I too would have been caught like a deer in the headlights. Picking my jaw off the floor. Oh my GOD!

My post was to confirm what he saw. THAT IS IT!
What was once a nicely made board, is now a cheaply made board.

What makes this new construction technique better? So I can sell it to my client, that is sceptical by looking at the new cheaply made samples.
Until someone can explain it with documented proof, I won't be suggesting this floor to any of my clients.

End of discussion.

Strange, that you keep repeating yourself. Each of your 3 claims with respect to the board (new construction technique, soft pine core, and thin veneer) where not the case with the boards that were received at my job. The only construction difference that I could see from other WFI boards I've seen in the past was no kerfs on the bottom.

Is it a bi-species? Rubberwood, eh?

The sample I looked at had finger boards of a different softer species as the center core with inconsistent spacing between the finger boards. the bottom was also a soft wood that my thumb nail easily penetrated, like balsawood.
Who knows at this point?? It is all new to me, as it has always been the same species throughout the plys.

The veneer was the only layer of that species, unlike the previously produced boards.

One of Williams pictures shows the two boards, and it is clear that one board is constructed with the same species, throughout all the plys. Next to it is a board that is a bi-species board, and only the wear layer is the species purchased.
That is consistent with what I saw.

He said voids in the core.
That is consistent with what I saw and the spacing of the finger boards.

Asking around, as my investigative nature is. It is a fact, that the materials used in production have changed.


Is it made with less quality materials then it once was? Yes, most definitely.
Is there consistency in these new materials and they way they are made into flooring? No. As your boards are different then the samples I viewed and touched.
Is this flooring made in China? I can not answer that.


Like I also said before, this might be the next best thing to sliced bread, but what makes this new construction technique better?

Come on educate me, PLEASE! I don't know it all as some think I think I do.
The change is new to me, and many others that have installed WFI engineered in the past.
If no one wants to teach me why, then stirring the pot a little to get someone that knows, to speak up and explain why, maybe the only way we can ALL learn something here, out of this mess.

You know an awful lot,Perry. You are still just an educated carpet layer like me,though. hehee

Multi species engineered constuction is nothing new. Provided the expansion coefficients of the respective species are similar,there really is no structural conflict. It can,in fact , add to the strength of the overall product. Sometimes a more dimensionally stable product can be made by mixing species. Kerfing is a good failsafe that better manufacturers use to ensure even expansion and contraction of the installed product. Poplar is a popular substitute for more expensive wood in the construction of engineered products.

Bottom line is this: You did not produce it. You did not test it. To presume to know more than the manufacturer that is standing behind the product is pure ,arrogant folly.


Lets get real here. 3ply is what it is. I have never seen a 3 ply product made by any manufacturer that bowled me over and had me saying,"I must have this for my home." WFI makes as good a 3 ply as can be had.

5 ply is better, 7 ply is even more so. 9? oh boy.

CHU

p.s. The janka scale rating of anything other than the wear layer is a worthless stat.

Thanks for the information Chuck!

WFI offers Collections of flooring in most all flooring formats (except impregnated) so we have a lot of experience and in speaking to our 3-layer format in has its pluses and minuses as do all the other formats.

In working with all engineered flooring formats and wood species the world over there is no best for all situations in flooring use. Here is what I believe and listed in decending order of typical cost:

1) My personal preference (I'm old school) is 3/4" solids (if in widths not over 3" as wider widths will always gap in areas with heating season needs and engineered construction cuts the width shrinkage down) and also only when over wood subfloors (concrete subfloors require too expensive of buildups)

2) In widths over 3" and in any width on concrete subfloors and in dry areas, my next preference is an engineered floor with a heavy sawn (not peeled or sliced) solid wood wear layer 3mm - 4mm in thickness. My best choice for construction is 3 layer ( by this I mean a solid wood cross slat core of hardwood approx. 9mm thick and a backing veneer layer of anything) as this format resists cupping much better than any multiply backing whether 5/7/9 ply etc. However, 3 layer flooring is susceptible to telegraphing (where the core cross slats show up in the face as faint cross marks almost like sanding chatter if the floor is exposed to moisture) if installed in wet areas. In 3 layer flooring what the back veneer is and its thickness or even if you have one just doesn't even matter as the cross slat core is the integrity in this floor's stability. And these products can be run square edged as they resist cupping so well.

3) In wetter areas I prefer a sawn face 3 to 4 mm thick solid wood wear layer over a 7 or 9 ply waterproof multiply base with a slight bevel. The bevel allows for cupping to not be so noticeable. While these products can be run square edged, if installed in dry areas and they cup (as the multiply base doesn't have the same strength to hold back the power of the solid wood wear layer as well as 3-layer cross slats can) the sharp, now raised, square edges will cause an immediate claim. But it can be done if extreme care is taken in preparing the wear layer which is where all the integrity of this product lies.

All the products above are what I consider resandable several times and solid woods equal.

Now you drop down into products that maybe can be rescreened once and these include:

4) Solid sawn face with a 2mm wear layer bonded to a 5 to 7 ply multiply base w/bevel. This is just a cheaper version of #3 above.

All the above you will note have a sawn face solid wood wear layer which replicates the look and performance of solid wood.

Below this you now drop down to veneer faced flooring and what happens here is that that because the act of peeling/slicing the wood causes the fiber to crack, veneer no longer cups (as the fibre is broken) but instead these cracks open up over time or in dry areas as veneer checks. And the thicker the wear layer the more checks you get. So the minute you go to veneer I believe that thinner is better.

The difference between rotary peeled and sliced veneer is mostly visual with sliced looking like sawn solid wood and rotary yielding the "plywoody" look w/o any staright grain. Also in rotary peeling the thinnest you can peel down to maybe 1.5mm whereas in sliced you can go down to .4mm. And veneer is always cheaper to make than sawn face because there is no sawdust waste from the blade cutting. And rotary is always cheaper than sliced as there is no edge/width waste with rotary. This used to be the entire US industry in offering thick rotary peeled oak that always checked !

Now, whatever veneer you use must go ontop of multiply (a few exceptions with thick peeled/sliced softer hardwoods) as opposed to 3 layer cross slat as the veneers are too thin and will telegraph (needs to be above 3mm to not telegraph in normal useage) And the thicker veneer you use the sooner and more likely they will face check over time and do so even quicker in dry areas. And if you sand veneer faces you run into the veneer checks as they are bigger the deeper you go in the veneer !

And with veneer faced floors the more plies the better as the the more gluelines you have the stronger and more stable the product. In veneer faced multiply flooring the integrity is in the balanced sum of all the laminations to give it stability.

Carrying this to the final conclusion probably the best veneer faced floor in terms of hardness and price is actually a .4mm - .6mm sliced face veneer over HDF as the HDF is exceedingly hard and the new ones very stable. You basically have a "laminate" floor with real wood look.

You have already seen the industry move thinner and thinner and this trend will accelerate I believe especially with all the new improved finishes (wait till the finishes using nano techology come out of the lab) supporting this in terms of improved wearability.

Thanks WR--It's nice to have some real experts on the manufacturing end in here. I only wish others in the industry would pitch in from time to time. Maybe they lurk?



That would take some time getting used to.



The reason for the thinner rotary peeled products lately?