I've searched and read through the posts here and can't find a situation like mine, hence my question.

I have a house built in the 80s.
There was carpet with particle board on top of 1x6 diagonally laid subfloor.

I removed the carpet and contracted the particle board removal and 5" Zickgraf natural hickory installation. As soon as the guys removed the particle board, the problems began.

The 1x6 subfloor isn't close to level. In fact, it's out of level a lot!
The 2 guys working had to call their boss who came out and scoped things out.

Long story short, they said they needed to add 5k to the original estimate.
After I picked my jaw up off the floor he hashed out what he was suggesting and why.

He suggested:

1. Put down #15 paper atop the 1x6.
2. Screwing a 1/4 sheet of plywood down over the exiting 1x6.
3. Dam the edges with wood and caulk.
4. Use lots of leveling compound (can't recall the name, Pur maybe) to make the floor flat.
5. Use Seka 2 part primer/glue combo to attach wood

Does this sound reasonable?
Does 5k sound reasonable too?

I have some photos of the work so far:

Leveler
With subfloor

Thanks for your thoughts.

What type, brand, kind of floor are your attemping to install? If it's a glued down engineered, well, they are probably on track. If it's a nail/staple down, I could of recommended a cheaper solution. Subfloor repairs are a nightmare and no one wins!

Hi Gary - It's 3/4 inch solid.

A 3/4" solid gluedown? That does not seem like a good idea.

That was my concern too.
I asked my installer "Does the glue-down hold up as well?"

His answer, "Absolutely, I use a special glue, Sika, especially designed for 3/4 inch wood applications. Only one."

Am I getting screwed here? I guess I could cut some of my losses, so far all I've paid for is the wood and the work to level the subfloor. Of course my subfloor now looks like concrete so seems like glue-down is the only option.

Sigh

http://www.sikaconstruction.com/tds-cpd ... T55-us.pdf

Looks like solid wood is okay with them. But, I don't see reference to 3/4" solid. Although, it seems from the table that they imply that 3/4" solid will work.

Definitely a question for Gary.

If it is ¾ have them blind nail it and shim the areas with roof shingles it will be cheaper all around. Tell them to knock off a few hundred dollars for the glue they will be returning as a result of doing a blind nail job.

Yes you are getting screwed, gluing to another wood medium is not as dangerous as gluing to concrete but it is not recomended, look at it this way. It is not as reliable as stapling and more expensive than stapling many installers charge more for gluing than they do for blind nail. Further I don’t know you square footage but glue cost about $150 for 200 square ft or about $.75 per sq ft. everything I see screams that this should be a blind nail job unless you have specified otherwise.

Hi, even though I'm just a spectator, for what it's worth, I recently saw and walked on a Sika floor, solid walnut over concrete, glued down, no nails. It was in a $5+ mil house. I don't know if this pertains to your situation, since you don't have concrete, but I saw a cross section of this floor because the house was still being completed, and the concrete was sealed with the Sika epoxy, and over this was a waffle-like cushion which was glued to the sealer, and the solid planks were glued to this. Since this deviated from "industry standards", I asked if he was worried about cupping. He said he has been using this system for 7 years without any problems. However, the manufacturer of this flooring (Carlisle) does support this system in their spec sheets. I must say that I have never walked on a wood floor this comfortable, and if I didn't already have my wood, I would be tempted to try this method.

Carlisle and many other solid manufactures do warrantee their product for glue down and for a good portion of installations there will be no problems. If there is a problem, these companies may replace the wood but many will not pay labor for reinstallation (some will). To a wood floor company it does not cost that much to replace a failed floor as they get their materials at next to nothing their markup could cover replacing the floor several times before they go in the red. Now on to the installer who pays for him? does he do the job again for free? you can see why there is a disconnect between what the manufacturers will warrantee and what a installer will do. Because in the end the little guy ends up being expected to eat more that he can afford to. That being said gluing to ¾ to concrete does not guarantee failure it just increases the likely hood of it. There is a clear body of evidence that shows an elevated risk of failure on ¾ glue to slab. Glue to other mediums such as wood the risk is far less likely and is probably similar to that of any other installation but to any other medium such as wood there are far cheaper, more tradition, more proven and better installation methods such as blind nail. If I had pulled up that board and found the same situation I would recommend nail and shim, which I would have recommended in the first place being ¾. It is best to assume that ¾ is a nail only product. Some can be floated with a clip system and glue can be used but both are inferior to nail.

This brings me to my next point, if they where going to glue then they could have glued to the particle board. The only issue particle board has is with not holding nails and even if they felt that it was not a good medium to glue to they should have known that they would have to replace it with plywood (or at least there was a good possibility). Anytime you are ripping up a floor you know there is a possibility of some form of nastiness underneath. This happen to me last week removing tile. The installer before me decided to remove the tile and mortar with a sledge hammer and then install his tile without patching the floor. Anyway the point is they should have prefaced you with the following statement.

When we remove this particle board we may find a floor that is unsuitable for installation. In the event this happens we will need to lay plywood to correct the problem. You sq footage is x and we charge y per sq ft for sub floor installation. So at worst case it will cost you $5,000. Any installer that has been at the game for more than a few jobs is going to know that given 10 jobs 2 are going to have serious sub-floor issues.

Anyone on this board will tell you that I am the last person in the world to throw an installer under the bus, as I know how hard it can be to please some homeowners but these guys are not going about it right. I am not saying that they have screwed up, I am just saying that they are focused on solving the problem in the wrong manner. They are choosing the most expensive route so that they can do a glue down job when the job has nail down written all over it. Further they should have figured sub-floor replacement into the contingency and given you that number before they started the project.

kls, You said that so well!!!


I can't add anything to that great conclusion.

KLS, very well put. And I absolutely agree with all you said. Never in a million years would I have considered repairing this subfloor this way for a 3/4" solid. You are perfectly correct in saying that the company performing this work is doing it in the most expensive manner with a higher potential of failure. The weak links in this procedure are: failure of the leveling compound bond to the wood substrate (seen it happen quite a bit), adhesive failure down the road, high degree of difficulty in any future repairs, and on and on. If I had this job, I would have secured the existing diagonal solid subfloor with screws or nails, checked for flatness. If only here and there, simply furred up with asphalt shingles. If severe, laid an additional layer of 1/2" plywood AFTER furring up all low areas and sanding high area. Then flaten the new plywood underlayment even more by sanding and shimming. I've done this EXACT procedure numerous times. Then nail the floor down.
But again, KLS, you stated the problem and correct solution perfectly.

I really appreciate all the feedback guys. I'm kicking myself for not asking earlier. Live and learn.

Given that all of my floors are covered with leveler now, I guess the best I can hope for is that nothing else goes wrong and the floor "holds".

Seems like it would cost me even more at this point to convince the current installer to do something different.

I spoke with the local Sika rep a week ago because I have a customer insisting on a solid, 3/4" IPE floor glued direct to a slab. My distributor recommended Sika. I have not used this adhesive before and have no personal experience with it but Perry here has used it. The rep highlighted it's benefits over Bostick's (more elastomeric) and better coverage, ei.= less cost. I'll never take a manufacturer's word about coverage because 9 times out of 10, they are exagerated. I asked about a warranty and guess what, there really isn't one. They don't warrant much of anything and you need to use their epoxy sealer (which everyone is making now days) and the substrate needs to be BETTER than the industry recommendation of flat to 3/16" in a 10' radius. All in all, I didn't hear anything that made me believe it was better than Chemrex or Stauf or Bostick's. So, bottom line, installers beware. The manufacturer's do not really warranty their products so only use and do what you absolutely KNOW will work.

Are they going to install plywood? If they are have then do a NAIL DOWN job. DO NOT LET THEM GLUE THE FLOOR!!!!!!!!!!!!! you will pay more for repairs and the glue / primer (as I wonder aloud why they are using primer on wood) can be returned and augment the price increase of the repairs.

Looking at the pictures again I see that they installed the plywood and then used leveler. I thought they leveled the low spots and then installed the plywood. I am at a loss, you have no choice but to glue as you cannot staple through leveler. I am at a loss for solutions as it seems glue is you only option. Gary or Perry may be able to offer an alternative solution.

Now I am left asking myself if they where going to use leveler on the top coat, why didn’t they just use leveler on the 1x6 and forgo the plywood. You know run some caulk in the cracks to prevent it from leaking through and just skim coat the 1x6’s

If they where going to use leveler would it not be as strong on top of particle board as it will be on plywood. Wouldn’t a skim coat over the particleboard have sufficed?