Dear Expert Panel,

We recently ordered 51 boxes of engineered hardwood floor (Kahrs Brazilian Cherry Brasilia 2 strip) over the internet which we installed in 1500 sqft of our 5 year old house during the last couple of days.

During the installation, we noticed that about 25 of the eight feet long boards (appr. 4 boxes) were significantly warped right out of the box, some by as much as 1 inch. I measured this by putting the boards on a table and measuring the distance from the highest warp point to the table surface.

Here are a couple of images which hopefully illustrate my problem:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/70187544@N00/2487208479/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/70187544@N00/2488015204/

If I believe Kahrs technical service here in the US, 1 inch of warping is considered acceptable as I found out earlier today when I called them. However, I have a really hard time believing that this is true, so I was wondering if there are any hard numbers by which a hardwood floor board is considered warped and as such defect.

Any help is highly appreciated,
Gil

Most manufacturers set their own standards of quality. Some qualify for !SO standards ( http://www.iso.org/iso/home.htm ) and typically will mention that in their sales materials. This is all I could see regarding that:

"The plants in Blomstermåla, Brumunddal, Nybro and Ljusdal have environmental and quality certification according to ISO 14001 and ISO 9001 and are EMAS-registered."

But on a practical matter, it is common to have some "banana" boards in engineered flooring. It rarely poses a problem as you can do a few things.

1) Do not use the boards. All manufacturers allow 5% of materials to be outside of grading quality and to have defects that exceed the stated quality of the material.
2) Cut out the damaged/defective spot. In your case, cutting the planks in half and using them for "starters" or ending pieces will remedy the problem.
3) The bowed boards aren't bad. To install, simply glue-up as required and apply enough pressure in the middle to flatten the board. Then tap into place. It will typically lay flat once locked into the surrounding boards.

If this does not solve the problem and the amount of banana boards exceed the 5% rule, you may request a partial return and replacement material from the dealer. They may or may not co-operate. If I were you, I'd try to install a few. If they do not lay flat after installation, remove them before the glue cures up and clean off the tongue of the existing floor board that you installed the banana board to. If the boards do not lay flat after trying to install them, then fight for a partial return and replacement. In my experience installing floaters of all types and brands, a small amount of bowing in the middle usually goes away after installation.

Thanks for the fast reply.

We tried to mix and match some of the boards with straight boards (the boards have a wood lock system so we didn't glue them down), but we still feel a significant hollow feeling when stepping over these areas, so I think we'll fight for a partial return of the warped boards.

I guess, you never stop learning when you do home improvements. I read that companies more or less guarantee that engineered boards never warp if treated and laid correctly, but it seems that they forget to mention that this guarantee doesn't apply to boards which already come warped from the manufacturer.

Prior to the woodlock system, all floating floors were glued together, not glued down, utilizing a regular T&G arrangement. On KAHR's website, it says that your particular flooring may still be available in the older, glue together style. When I looked at your pictures, they appeared to be the older, regular T&G style. I guess not though. Hope you get it resolved ok. The dealer should accept the exchange I'd think.

Per Kahrs installation instructions that came with the boards, you can either glue it together or simply snap it in place. Actually, their woodloc system works really well. It also allows you to remove boards and replace them with others, which we probably have to do with all these warped ones.

I have asked the dealer to send an inspector to look at the problem and decide whether a partial return is warranted or not, so let's see what happens...

Again, thanks so much for your help.

As I read your post, it sounds as though your installation is complete. If that is the case. You might be thankful to let the issue die.

One of the responsibilities of the installer is to not install defective boards. Or as Gary pointed out to use them in an effective manner.

The Kährs flooring should have a 5 degree bow in the length of the board out of the box. The pictures you posted show a significantly higher level of deflection.

I have installed many Kährs floors. Some floors for family members before I understood proper leveling techniques, had left voids or hollow spots under the floors. I found in time these areas conformed to the floor contour underneath and the "hollow" feel disappeared.

Kährs might give you a box of extra material but the issue of removing and replacing individual planks in an existing floor is not an easy task. Nor is the idea of disassembling an entire layout to get to a spot or two that are troublesome. If this were me and my house, that floor would have to be bounding like a trampoline for me to attack this problem with the intent of improving the situation.

As a side, most hollow spots is a floating floor are due to improper leveling of the floor prior to install. I have seem many that do feel like a trampoline.

You raise a couple of good points...


Although the installation of the boards is finished, it's still easy to get to the problematic boards that are installed because we have not nailed quarter rounds yet. I watched the installer the other day try to mix and match some of the warped boards with straight ones in the hallway, and it looked pretty easy to replace specific boards with new one. Our boards use a system called Woodloc which allows you to click the boards in place. It also allows you to remove boards real easily, so I thought it's a real simple task to remove warped boards.

I also understand that my chances of a partial return are slim, but at least I tried. I paid over $7 per sqft for the hardwood floor, and I just have a hard time accepting a warped solution for this amount of money.


Could you please elaborate a little bit more on this point? As I said above, we use a click system so I am not sure if leveling is required for this type of floor. Actually, all the installer had to do is cut the boards, then click them into an existing one on the ground. We did not glue or nail the boards.

Unless the doors are not installed the flooring is glued together to fit under the door casings. This will not be easy to remove. Most likly the boards will need to be cut out to the point no glue was used.

Leveling the floor is critical for glued and floating floor systems. The tolerance is 3/16" over 10' or approximately 1/8" over 6'.

We had the floor inspected, and I received a reply from the dealer I bought the floor from this morning. Included was a summary of the inspector's report which I have included at the bottom of this message. In my opinion, this report agrees on bowing in the boards and gives exact measurements of the observed bowing.

However, when I called the dealer he first said that the bowing was within the company's tolerance. When I asked him if there is some published material he didn't answer, then started to bargain. I hung up the phone and called Kahrs, and sure enough they have published tolerance numbers regarding their curvature. It's 2mm per meter, and 3mm per 2 meters. So if I read the report correctly, the bowing the inspector found is well above Kahrs published guidelines.

I know, y'all are hardwood floor experts and not lawyers, but if you have any comments on what to do next it's truly highly appreciated. The inspector stated that the affected area is 500 sqft, so in my boyish opinion the dealer should replace this amount. But I am not a lawyer either...

--- Inspector's Report ---

Installer consumer hired
Installer Contact unk
Installer Phone unk
Date Install April 2008
Date Noticed April 2008
Product Style Kahrs - #152N55JO50KW - Br. Cherry Brasilia
Install Location 8 rooms
Problem The customer states that out of a 51 carton order
3 to 4 cartons are warped.
SquareFeetTotal 1500
SquareFeetInvolved 500
InspectorUserName ******
InspectionDate 5/17/2008
Subfloor Concrete
ExistingFloor Carpet
Underlayment 2 in 1
HeatingSystem Forced air
Humidifier No
Dehumidifier No
Acclimation Yes
CareGiven hasn’t cleaned
Repairs n/a
Adults 2
Children 0
Pets 1 dog
RelativeHumidity 54%
MoistureReading 7%-8%
MoistureMeterType wood pin meter
RequestDate 5/13/2008
Emailed 5/27/2008

Approved Report - Report Date:5/26/2008
Description of area: The flooring has been partially installed in the home. The ¼-round trim and transition strips have not been installed as well as a hallway. Claim history: The consumer stated that he and the installer notice immediately after installation began that the planks were bowed. They used as many of the planks that they could, and culled the planks that were problematic. The consumer stated that in order to finish the install the installer started using the culled material to finish the hallways. He stated that at this time the only areas that he is dissatisfied with are the hallways and a few planks in the master bedroom. The hallways the planks still have bowing problems and deflect when stepped on. He stated that he’s not looking to replace the whole floor just the two hallways and master bedroom. Test and observation: Using a Delmhorst BD-10 pin meter I observed the moisture readings in the flooring material to be 7%-8%. With the subfloor exposed I was able to do a moisture test on the subfloor. Using a Tramex Concrete moisture encounter meter I observed the moisture readings in that spot at 2%. I observed areas in the flooring with deflection when weight is applied. The areas were measured using a level as a straight edge; the measurements ranged from 1/8”-1/4”. The areas are located in the hallways and master bedroom. I observed in one hallway the installer had laid an additional piece of underlayment under the bowed area down the middle of the floor. Examining the culled material I found bowing in the length of the planks. The bowing was measured and ranged from ¼” to 5/8”. The expansion space was measured in each of the rooms; the space along the walls measured 3/8”-1/2”, door jambs 0”- 1/16” transition strips 0”-3/8”. The door jambs were not undercut, the transition strips are not installed but I observed strips of wood cut and glued to the subfloor. The strips of wood are in contact with the flooring in some areas. The transition strips were to be glued to the strips of wood.

Supplemental Page:
Conclusion: Based on test and observations and history provided I did find bowing of the planks, however manufacturers’ tolerances and assessment will need to prevail in this case. If the Bowing was noticed as stated while installation was taking place, it is the installer’s responsibility to stop installation and notify the consumer and retailer that there is a problem with the flooring material. During this inspection I did observe numerous installation shortcomings at the transition strips and door jambs, however at time of this inspection they were not a factor due to the incompletion of the flooring installation.

the rule is:
Return the wood for credit or replacement.
If you install it, you own it.

Was the rule written on the boxes?
I agree it is an unwritten industry rule, but, I have always wanted to know, where is that written on the boxes the wood is packed in or the flat it arrives on?
I may be wrong, but, might be an interesting discussion...
Dang Ray, do you go to all the floor forums posting links to your businesses?
hey admint., is that allowed for all contributors?
I may be new but the first two I click on I see links to a private business. Just wondering if we can all do that?
anyway, I will be back regularly and thanks for a wonderful forum.

It's written in the instructions that come with each box of wood. If a defect in the material is noticed, the installation should halt and the dealer contacted. It is understood that failure to follow written installation instructions may VOID the warranty. So, if the installer installs bowed flooring, he does so at his own risk.

Almost all pre-finished flooring products come with complete, and sometimes overly complex installation instructions.
But, invariably; all instruction sheets will say, in one form or another that
"once a board is installed the installer/home-owner accepts that board."
This of course, would not apply in situations where defects are not evident until some time after installation. Faulty adhesion of finish, as an example.