Hi I'm new to this message board. I think this website is spectacular. I've read through all the information pretty thoroughly and I've read several message board pages. I would consider myself one of your peers because I've been using many of the techniques described here for years plus I also have the "I'm the floor expert and if you don't want to do it the right way, get someone else to do it" attitude that many of you have. I also strongly believe in "you get what you pay for".

So with that being said I liked to throw this by you:

My client wants 3/4" solid, square-edged, site finished, 3 to 4 inch wide flooring (species still open) installed in her ranch home (no basement); I think she's a purist. The home has a concrete substrate almost fifty years old. The challenge is that several parts of the home are additions with flooring at diffrent heights. The original part of the house has pre-finished 3/4" engineered wood glued over linoleum that butts up to carpet that has been streched to tackstrips over an asbestoes tile. The prefinished floor also butts up to vinyl flooring in the kitchen that's layed over ???? (there's a metal transition strip commonly used with vinyl flooring there).

Then the newer addition has 1/4" parquet glued directly to the slab. This floor also butts up to kitchen and carpet at different doorways and is considerably lower then these floors (probably one to two inches, but I can't tell exactly yet because the vinyl flooring is sloped to meet the parquet at the doorway and the carpet has some weird wood threshold that looks like a ramp to meet the parquet-i'll have to remove these to get an accurate measurement).

In the past, when I've had to install solid wood over concrete, I've applied a product called Redguard to the slab, then 6 mil poly film, then fastened 3/4" plywood with Hilti-powder actuated fasteners, then 15# felt, then stapled the flooring to that. I've never had to do more than 400 feet using that method. Using the Hilti is hard on the body, and I would not be looking forward to nailing 1900 square feet of plywood with it.

I'm thinking of using a floating subfloor instead. Finally my question is, do you think I can install it over the parquet? I want to leave the parquet 1. because "who wants to tear-out glue-down", but more importantly i need to build up that part of the floor anyways so why tear it up. It seems to be well adhered (the homeowner could sand it but she hates the way it looks).

Also I don't want anything to do with "disturbing" the asbestoes tile in the original part of the house so I wanted to float a sub-floor over that too. So two layers of plywood over the asbestoes tile, the linoleum thats under the prefinished wood (I will have to tear-out the prefinished), and the vinyl flooring in the kichen, which are all just about at the same height. And three (or more) layers of plywood over the parquet; i'll need more layers here in order to build up to the rest of the floor.

There is no visual evidence of moisture problems, but I will be performing two or more types of moisture tests of course.

I know there will be a huge increase in floor height (doors will have to be cut and some are pocket doors that slide on a track and hide in the walls and which I don't know how to remove...yet). Then she wants to keep the kitchen cabinets where they are. There's a built-in dishwasher that will either be locked in or sit so high that the counters will need to be re-installed.

The alternative is TEAR EVERYTHING OUT! .........(except the asbestoes). and start fresh. It's gonna be a ton of work either way but I would rather skip the messy tear-out if possible.

Sorry for the long, long post but if anybody has any thoughts I would greatly appreciate them.

P.S. There are a lot of floor vents do the hvac guys have to come and shim/adjust the sheet metal or can it stay the way it is?

Thank You

I don't think it is safe to put anything over the top of wood flooring. Trapping moisture under the new floor, in my humble opinion, will end in disaster.
You have a huge job ahead of you, and lots of floor preparation to do.

Thanks for your thoughts Mr. Darrah. But isn't moisture always "trapped" when flooring is installed over concrete. I mean every slab is going to release some moisture, you just want to keep it isolated and quarantined from the new floor/subfloor. The parquet floor is flat and has been for many years so, does that mean there is no excessive moisture being released and therefore suitable to be layed over. I'm sure the moisture test will reveal this.

Or maybe you are correct in your apprehension because maybe the parquet remains flat after so many years only because it is allowed to release any moisture it accuumulates into the ambient air. How much can a parquet floor move if it has two (or more) layers of plywood plus the actual flooring material weighing it down?

Well unless anyone has any other thoughts I'm going to bid a "complete" tearout and let my client decide whether she wants to spend the money to install a solid floor the "right" way or settle for a different product. Does a "floatable" product exist that is milled so accurately that it doesn't require any type of beveling?

P.S. Can I at least leave the asbestoes tile in place and install over that or should I have someone qualified remove it?

Thanks again.

Stonewood,

Welcome. I think you are not understanding the dynamics at play here. Yes, all healthy concrete slabs continue to absorb and release some moisture. The reason the parquet is performing fine is that the moisture release is within tolerance (less than 3 lbs per 1000 sq ft in a 24 hr time period) and the is nothing on top of the parquet to prevent the continuing release of that moisture. Plus, parquet, by it's very nature, exhibits minimal movement. However, if one were to "go over" it, and install a vapor retardant ( barrier?) on top of the parquet, you would risk trapping that moisture release in the parquet and therefore, it would have no avenue of escape. The downside is now the parquet could exhibit excessive movement or worse, begin to rot do to excessive humidity and moisture build up. Mold and fungus grow and thrive on wood at 20% and higher MC. If the is no avenue of escape for the moisture, it could reach that 20% MC easily. I think this is the point Ray was getting at.

Thanks for the clarification Gary.

Do you think similar problems would occur if I left the asbestos tile? I read an ealier post with a similar question, but I assume he was using an engineered product over asbestoes because he was going to float it. I'm using solid 3/4 " over floating sub-floor.

In that same thread there was a link to a Wall Street Journal article that said asbestos was not as dangerous a threat as previously thought, (revealed by the EPA after 9/11) and that it was only really dangerous to people who were exposed to high levels for long periods of time. I did some further research and found another article that recommended removing asbestos based tile by using dry ice to super-cool the floor causing the mastic/adhesive to fail, then the tiles could easily be popped off. What d'ya think about that?!

Don't get me wrong, I probably will NOT be romoving the asbestos myself if I decide it has to go. I'll be hiring an abatement company even though it isn't required in Illinois.

I just want to know if I can leave it alone considering my situation and considering it is very well adhered to the slab.

I kept digging through the message board and found Owens Plank. So ALL the Owens Plank is unfinished? It can be glued directly to concrete and then sanded and finished? Is it really hard to tell the difference between Owens and solid? If this is the case it may just be the thing I'm looking floor. I probably sound silly to everyone down south where "Concrete is King", but most of the homes in Wisconsin have wooden subfloors.

Thank You

All Owen's Plankfloors come unfinished. If it were pre-finished, it would be like many others yes? It's designed to be sanded and finished in place like a traditional wood floor. Maybe only a very experienced pro could tell the difference between Owen's and solid. Wisconsin has wood subfloors because your frost line extends below grade. I'd be concerned about that slab heaving.



No, go over it. Float, nail or glue.

I'm in the middle of 1500 sq.ft. of unfinished Owens Plank wood flooring, right now. It is a fight at times to get the T&G to engage, as a gluedown. My fingers hurt, and it it were not for my Lam-Hammer, I'd be crying the blue's.

Perry, remember, it's going to be sanded so you can get more physical with it. I don't know what a lam hammer is. I have a Lixie mallet for my M111 FS and on one side, I have the super soft cap. I can beat the daylights out of the edge of the board without denting or damaging it. The rubber side of the Powernailer mallet should work too I'd think.

Gary, Last time I was up at the Owens mill, 6 months ago, I was shown prefinished products I was told they were going to bring to market.

OK, are they on the market yet?

http://www.lam-hammer.com/


Gary, I was trying to use the rubber mallet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But not in the urethane glue edge. Some just would not want to budge. Especially where your at an end joint in the previous row.

I used my Lam-Hammer to pull boards together like a tapping block. Worked like a charm.

They had an Owens prefinished a few years back. Don't know why they dropped it. Perry...man..use your feet. You can get a lot of leverage getting boards tighter. End joints? kick 'em with your sneakers. In all honesty to better your abilities, you should spend a few weeks with a few different hardwood guys. You'd be amaized at the tips you can pick up.

I hope you take my comments constructively. Having worked with a dozen different hardwood installers over the years I learned quite a bit. Pic below, straddle the glue area, drop the board into place and push with your left foot..works wonders. No more sore fingers and knees either

Notice the clean sneakers? 1200 sf no glue on them!

I don't know about you guys but when I've installed glue downs with a urethane adhesive that has a strong memory like Bostik's, I ALWAYS install with the groove facing toward the unlaid area (reverse of a staple/nail down, ei: groove out). This allows me to angle the board to engage the tongue and get a fairly snug fit BEFORE I drop the whole board in the adhesive. Then if I need to tighten it up, I do the "push it with my foot" routine Ken was showing. The only time I don't do it this way is when I'm gluing AND nailing. And it's a friggin' nightmare. That's when I'll use a beater board and a mallet. So now, when it's a glue and nail, I don't full spread anymore but do the tube thing. Much easier!
I checked out that lam-hamer. Looks like a nifty tool! How much?

I want to know how many times that pencil falls into the glue!!!

I know how to use my rubber mallet to work a board. I use it on every job.

In small rooms I get a wide spread out. Nothing I can straddle. I have use my feet before, But that means I'm having to stand up. I work off my knees on gluedowns.

Ken, The guy doing the sand & finish watched me. He wants me to get a LamHammer for him. I agree, you should spend a few weeks with a few different hardwood guys. You'd be amaized at the tips and new tools you can use.


Gary, they retail for $85 Standard, $95 for the Atlas, and $100 for the Titan, plus $15 shipping, which makes the totals $100, $110, and $115. I charge $20 for the extensions and $8 for the Tapping Block. If more than one tool is ordered, I add $5 shipping for each additional one.