Concrete Slab Advice Please.......... Hi, the flooring guy came to give us a bid on wood floors for our new house. He said we were on slab and that he would need to install subflooring first. The price jumped to about $10/sf. Laminate flooring is not an option. I just don't like it. Does anyone know of any glue-down alternatives? If so, are they all pre-finished? I stopped in Home Depot and they had some solid exotics that could be glued. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you !
(Can't wait to lose my carpeting )

There a a lot of enineered wood floors that can be glued down. Check out the other posts in here for more info. You'll want to be sure that moisture will not be an issue, coming up through the slab, the floor is flat, etc, etc.

The NWFA and NOFMA do not recommend gluing solid flooring directly to concrete; and neither do I. You're best bet is to install an engineered hardwood floor if you do not want to have a plywood subfloor installed. Engineered wood floors can be floated or glued down. There are a few unfinished engineered floors that replicate solid wood quite well; Owen's PLANKFLOOR for one and do not require a plywood subfloor. Your installer should be checking for moisture content and flatness of the slab.

Will,
The NWFA and NOFMA represent over 90% of all flooring manufacturers worldwide, including Bostik's. You are correct that these are guildlines and suggested schedules and procedures based on industry experience by the manufacturers. One can install a floor anyway they choose and they will be responsible for that choice. If they choose not to follow industry procedures and guidelines and there is a problem, they will not receive much support or sympathy from the manufacturers. If Bostik's will warranty a solid floor glued direct to concrete using their adhesive, great! It is not about money either. It is about what the industry knows that works! I am not against change nor trying new procedures; that is why I am an NWFA member, to keep up with the changes in the industry. I have seen personally solids (1/2" by 4" quarter sawn red oak) glued to concrete with Bostik's fail. Personally, I would not risk this type of installation; that is my choice. If some else chooses to risk it, that is their choice. I have no problem with people doing whatever they choose, as long as they assume responsibility for their choice.

I bet the glue didnt fail. and to be honest i am not sure that i would glue down an oak floor. brazilian exotics are getting to be my specialty and those woods{contrary to what is written on the net} are remarkably stable. the moisture absorbtion rate is close to nil on ipe and cumaru as well as tigerwood and b.cherry. these woods are very dense and the cell structure is very tight. these woods DO NOT ACT like the woods that most of us are used to dealing with. hell i distribute decking that does not have to be treated, you can if you want but it aint necessary. cumaru and ipe are so high on the janka scale most american species arent on the same page.

As an NWFA Certified wood flooring inspector, I enjoy reading Williams post about gluing down solids.


You think a class with Howard or Micky would change his mind?

floorguy,
I'am with william I see no problem with glueing down solid wood I have done it lots of times. Whats with the nwfa #%$. Just keep giving them your money they'll be happy.


Wasn't it goofy and mickey.

Wow, i truely do not know what to say about this glueing down solids. it is a major source of contention. perry as much as you talk about NWFA one would think you might be the president, and i never took you for a blind follower. i do not know where anyone gets off telling someone else that one thing is bad to do when that person has never tried it. i have done it many times and once on a job i got from ken. bostik findley has been around since 1890, how long has the NWFA been around. also as i have posted in every message board i go to, UNTIL ONE OF THESE ASSOCIATIONS THAT TELL ME HOW TO LAY FLOORING, WILL WARRANTY THEIR METHOD THEY WILL NOT HAVE MY SUPPORT. does anyone remember the cfi that used to be out for installers until the mills got ahold of them. blind followers i say. i guess we can all agree to disagree, but when some of you out here say anyone who glues a solid is a hack, and they have never done it, it really shows the bias of your opinion and i resent it. i warranty all of my installations for LIFE, and am not into eating wood, so if i can glue it down its getting glued down.

I don't have to install one to know if it works or not.

It is called getting educated!


As an inspector, 85% of the failures I get to see, are thin solids, glued to the slab, using Bostiks. The other 15 are solids over plywood, over concrete. Some of these are within the first year, and I have seen one that failed 10 years after installation.(solid over plywood)

Cupped and buckled.


I have never lost money, on a job I didn't do. My reputation likes that, too.


Howard Brickman & Micky Moore, have more creditability, then you William, or you pig-pen. I think I'll stick with the 2 that have more knowledge and education on the subject.


There are smart people in this industry, and then there are the ones with the attitude, that "I have been doing it like this for 30 years, and never had a problem".


How can you argue with a brick wall???


Here are a couple of documented cases to make my case.

Looks like we'll be in disagreement on this issue for awhile. Even though Bostiks will warrant such, I don't know many true hardwood guys(ones that have been around before the likes of Pergo) that will gluedown a 3/4" solid except for herringbones or large 3/4" parquet patterns and the like.

Perry--more details on the pics?

Back to the original question:

There are many fine engineeered exotics available today. Products that will last well over 20 and 30 years and more. A few would include....

WFI Exotics

Kahrs Mega Strip

BR111 Casanova Collection

Forest Accents City Plank

BTW...



Those pictures are of one of your so called, "stable" exotics.



I'm sure glad you can afford to eat a job like that!
3300sq.ft of exotic and labor. If I had deep pockets like you, I might take the risk, too.

One of the things I find interesting is the statement that Bostik's will warranty a solid floor glued directly to concrete. Without checking it out, I wonder exactly what the warranty would include and exclude. What I question is "Best's" ability to act as a moisture barrier. We all know the concrete will continue to absorb and release moisture. If the rate of that release is too great, the flooring will fail (cup,buckle). Certain types of woods (mostly exotics) are more stable and less susceptible to moisture due to their high oil content and/or very dense cellular structure. But I am sure they have their thresholds also. I also question "Best's" ability to resist failure due to moisture. Two years ago, I laid 1200 sq.ft. of Firebird "Phoenix" (1/2" engineered) in braz cherry. A few days after completing the job, the homeowners calls with a problem; seems his ice maker leaked "a little" bit. Well, where the leak was, not only was the floor cupped, but the adhesive, Bostik's Best, completely released from the concrete. I could literally just pick the cupped boards up from the floor; no prying, no chiseling. I was amazed as I'd seen acrylics perform better in a wet environment. To those who wish to stake their reputations and finances on a product or manufacturer, I say good luck. For me personally, I think there is enough evidence that says at least some of the solid wood floors glued to concrete will fail. I choose not to have that happen to me.

Luckily for me. I live in the hills, and we don't see much slab. I used to love the Franklin 911; it was the easiest to work with of any adhesive I've ever used on hardwood.
I have used both Taylor and Parabond products to glue down solid materials, but this was on stair treds, and I can see no problem with this; no failures or problems to date. I would worry expansion of solid flooring when glued down; think 5/16 natural reflections.
As far as warranty goes, most I've taken the time to read the fine print on are only for replacement of the adhesive. William. why don't you scan in the text from the paper Bostich sent you, and post it here?

sk you can count on it. i hope that will get some of the pressure off me. i spend entirely to much of my time discussing this issue with perry wright. ken thank you for at least aknowledging that bostiks does in fact warranty it as i have said they do.

perry of all the failures that you have seen where a solid was glued with bostiks, how many used bst and not best? how many actually failed due to the glue? sorry but a moisture cure urethane glue does not make a floor cup, bow or anything else. how many failed cause they used a v notch instead of a square notch?

ken you did make a point that i would like to expound on. the old timers are very slow to adapt to new techniques. i remember teaching a bunch of oldtimers i started laying carpet with in the beginning how to pen a seam. cant tell you how much money i have made on these same oldtimers taking money from them cause they swore I could not pen a header seam on berber. wanna bet. perry i swear to god if you post something like the cfi doesnt approve of the pen method i will throw my computer away.

Sounds more like a personal problem to me!
Ask me why I should waste my time giving you free information, I paid good money for? Because I care about you, more then you might think.







None. All with Bostik's best.








None, all were moisture related. Concrete MVE were over 6# per 1000









Who said it did? You seem to have a way of reading between the lines and come away with what you want to hear(read)











I can row cut across the grain on a loop pile, put it together and you would never know it is there. Are you still using a pen to run a row? I got away from a used up ball point about 8 years ago.

Did CFI teach me that? No, a craftsman named Fred Nelson taught me that, 20 years ago.