Hi guys,

Well, you know how sometimes s**t happens, well, that's this particular job. A little history.

A regular customer, a GC, contacts me to install flooring for his customer in a huge, multi-million dollar home. They use WarmBoard (radiant tubes) as the subfloor. The customer decides she MUST have American Black Walnut, engineered, hand-scraped, 4" wide, long lengths, 3/16" wear layer minimum etc. Nothing already made fits this bill so I have it custom milled at a cost of $40,000.00 (for 2700 sq.ft.) We decided we needed to install a 3/4" plywood underlayment over the warm board and that was done. Then, the custom flooring was installed by gluing and nailing after the customer examined and approved it. The underlayment was double and triple checked for squeeks and noises prior to the flooring install. Nearly a year later, the customer complains the flooring makes noises in some places. And upon inspection, the flooring does squeek in a few locations. But it's not the flooring so I figure it must be the underlayment. So I hire an inspector to locate the heating tubes with a FLIR camera and that was awesome. I next try to screw down the underlayment to the subfloor through the finish floor using 2" trim head screws. It does not resolve the squeeks. I am puzzled. I say, let's try bigger head screws. So I use #12 2&1/2" coarse thread wood screws with huge heads and counter sink them into the walnut flooring, through the 3/4" underlayment and into the warmboard subfloor. NO EFFECT! I am truly puzzled now. So the only remedy any of us can come up with is to remove the walnut flooring and see what maybe causing the squeeks. Problem is, the original manufacturer is out of business and I cannot get an exact duplicate of the flooring. No longer made. It appears I will have to see IF I can get someone else to make some but no one wants to custom make a small batch of wood (100 sq.ft. or less ). I am concerned I'll go to all this time, money and effort to get some more flooring and the customer will refuse the work because the new wood doesn't match the old wood perfectly. So, what would you do?

I dont think you mentioned how many areas are squeeking? I know you said about 100 Sq Ft worth but it also sound like its isolated to 1 or 2 spots.
Sometimes the harsh reality is to make the customer live with it. There are many variables that it could be causing the squeek. Maybe the tubing has come a bit loose and is rubbing against the 3/4" ply you put down? In that case a screw wont fix it because you obviously cant place a screw near the tubing.
Another thing it could definitely be: The house must have at least a 1/2" subfloor as its main decking, then the warmboard tubing with subfloor, then your 3/4" ply then the finished flooring. Thats a lot of floors. You said you glued and nailed your finished floor so thats probably not causing the squeek. You probably screwed and possibly construction adhesived the 3/4" ply so thats probably not causing the squeek. But the 1st layer of decking that meets the warmboard might have been installed using nails and they may be backing out with the house settling after a year or so. That nail rub can be causing the squeek. In most of these scenarios i can think of its not your fault. At the same token where is the plumber in this scenario and the framer who installed the decking? You should not be the only one spending time and money on this situation. Most new home complaints to builders in the first several years are subfloor squeeks and drywall nail pops.
Let me know what you think. I am curious about any update

There are only two very noticable squeeks. A few more that you have to make a real effort to get any noise out of the spot. But about the way this "system" was constructed. Warmboard is an 1&1/8" plywood subfloor with grooves routed in for the tubes then overlaid with an aluminum sheet, which conforms to the grooves.

The WarmBoard was attached directly to the steel trusses with special screws. Over this, I nailed down, using 2" ringshanked subfloor nails 8" OC, 3/4" CDX plywood underlayment. This was all quite solid prior to installing the walnut flooring. There were a few squeeks that occured prior to installing the walnut but we went over the underlayment a couple of times screwing down areas that made any noises. The reason I chose not to glue the underlayment was because if it ever had to be removed, that could be done without ruining the WarmBoard and exposed tubing. Then the walnut flooring, a T&G engineered floor, was stapled and glued down to the underlayment. That's how this floor was installed. Most of this McMansion was built out of concrete and steel. The only wood used was a finished surfaces (doors, cabinets, floors, etc.) No wood used for framing. The "deck" WarmBoard installers did a shitty job. It was way out of flat and level. Don't ask me how as I do not know.

First off, I make sure I explain to my clients, over time, with seasonal changes and humidity changes(radient heat) that squeaks in a wood floor are natural and normal characteristics of a wood floor.

All the things done pior to the wood installation, are to prevent the amount of squeaks.


I don't know what to tell you, except it is not an installation related claim You have wood that dried out during the winter and the radient heat accelerating the drying. Now the floor heat is turned off, and the wood has swelled. The tinyslight amount of movement(everything engineered ply) has cause things to loosen up.

Good thing it wasn't a solid!!!

Gary, Could they have hired a better professional, that is so driven to find a solution to a new issue that cropped up a year later, than yourself. You did your best, sounds like there is nothing else to do but live with some of the imperfections in life. Bet alot of our soldiers wished they had this problem.

Thanks Guys. You have all said pretty much what I think. If this GC wasn't such a big client, I'd write it off, meaning that I'd tell him I've done all I can. I think I shall look into attempting to make some replacement flooring and getting the builder to pay for it.

Based on your updated info; its probably the ring shank nails rubbing with the cdx. Also we dont know what the "special screws" they used are.

Why do you use nails? Who else uses nails for subfloor installs? I carry only screws in my truck. I see so many nailed subfloors squeek i never wanted mine to move like that.

First off, I installed underlayment, not subfloors. And remember, the subfloor I was installing the underlayment over was sheathed in thick aluminum. Screws would not work that well. Plus, I had (92) 4 x 8 sheets of it to install. Nailing with a ring shanked subfloor nail is an industry standard. Furthermore, if it were the nail riding up on the underlayment, the screws I later added should have fixed it, but they didn't. That being said, in retrospect, I should have charged more and screwed it down, if that were possible, which I suppose could be. But no going back now except to attempt to "repair" it I suppose. You live and learn, even after 25+ yrs. on the floor.

Gary,
There sure is a lot of sub-floor and underlayment on this job to be moving.............. if RE-fastening did not do it,,,,,,,,,,,,,, then where is the movement?

Gary -
I am not trying to say you made a mistake but rather just see your or anyones opinion on the nails Vs Scews. I understand you did not install a "subfloor" but rather a new substrate if we want to get technical. I generally refer to them as subfloors because everyone understands what i am talking about when i refer to them as subfloors. I know nails are common practice but thats why framers who used nails for subfloors were then looked upon to use construction adhesive with their nails because of nail movement. All i was stating is nails have a chance to move, screws do not. Simple fact. I know we dont know why a floor whether it be yours or the other people who worked on the house is squeeking. Just disecting another issue on a lot of other floors that happen.
In your neck of the woods what do you charge for installing a new substrate per sq ft? I know it widely ranges but we charge approx $.90 - 1.20 depending if its for vinyl, laminate, hardwood, tile. So you have at least $3k in labor for that. That would not take more than a week installing it yourself. Thats good money for near mindless work.
Did you staple or glue your engineered wood?

Ray asked:


That's what I'd like to know. We have not determined that as yet. We are going to remove a small section of floor where there is a squeek and see if we can determine why this floor is making any noise.

Goodhouse said:


I do appreciate your's and everyones responses. I'd like you to read the "sticky note" Ken and I wrote concerning underlayments and subfloors.
http://www.hardwoodinstaller.com/hardwo ... .php?t=385
You'll see a few comments I made concerning terminology and the importance of using the correct terms when discussing "technical" issues. I realize nails can squeek eventually and this very well may be the cause/problem. But if it were, then why didn't driving screws into the flooring, underlayment and subfloor eliminate it?

Goodhouse asked:


On this particular job, I charged $3.15 a ft. to supply and install 92 sheets of 3/4" CDX plywood, which cost $26 a sheet plus delivery of $100.00 and another $250.00 for the laborers to unload and stack it in the house. It took 2 weeks to install because I had to work around other trades, clean up trash left behind, lay out and be cautious of the water/heating tubes and I was working by myself. Yes. I made good money on this phase of the job, no doubt. But I also live in CA where it is super expensive to live and cost of doing business is also very expensive. My charges were considered very reasonable.

Goodhouse asked:


Yes, I said I did in my previous posts. I said " Then the walnut flooring, a T&G engineered floor, was stapled and glued down to the underlayment."

Gary...

What ended up being your resolution?? Any updates?