OK -- So in all my years, I have always heard -- 15# Felt for underlayment directly below the nailed boards -- helps with squeaks, provides moisture protection (not vapor barrier as many have posted), etc...

In the never ending battle to improve our home, we are on the next phase and we are having 3/4" Clear Maple, Prefinished, 3 1/4" Mirage placed on our public living space. This will be on above grade, newly added 1/2" Plywood (on top of 1/2" plywood subfloor) so that all floors are level when finished.

Our pro (and all they do is woodflooring and do some VERY SERIOUS custom work in the area) claim they no longer use roofing felt and have not for a few years. They say it is a paper like Photographic Paper with a Poly film adhered.

Thoughts???

AGE

New products are being developed all the time. This is one I haven't heard of. Let us know the name brand of the product. I have a contact at Fortifiber I can ask about it.

Sounds like 2-in-1, floating floor underlayment.

I have never seen it used, as it was in your installation.

Hey guys, doesn't Bruce have something like that?

UGH!!!

I gotta find out what these cats are going to install in my floor. If the pro's here can't tell me that there is an acceptable alternative then I have to go straight to the source. They are such a small shop it's hard to get any quality info.

Going right to the owner...

AGE

Well... Right from the Horses Mouth....

"15 lb. Felt prices over the past five years have gone up tremendously... We started using this product about 4 years ago for all our installations and have had no issues. I wouldn't risk installing a product that would compromise our installations. It is like Kodak Photo paper -- very stiff with a Polyurehtane coating. Our installers like it because it's easy to work with and lays very flat...."

He couldn't give me any specs or who makes it. All they can tell me is that their distributor calls it White Vapor Paper. All leveling and feathering would be done with felt...

Oh boy...

AGE

$13 for over 400 feet?...You would tthink this kodak wonder stuff would be moore than that..interested to find out what it is and who makes it.

Age Man,

#15 lb. felt is used for more than one reason and is still recommended by the NWFA and NOFMA. Any plastic film product will not allow the transmission of vapor that could in theory, lead to premature subfloor rot. That is why when installing on concrete, one puts the vapor barrier down first, then the plywood. And it's why pressure treated screeds are used instead of regular lumber. If one has a crawl space, install 6 or 8 mil polyethylene on the entire gound below to stop or at least slow moisture transmission so the foundation vents can carry it out. Then lay #15 lb. felt over the subfloor. I know Bruce had a plastic vapor barrier stuff when Natural Reflections came out. Don't know whats up with that now? If it were me, I ask for the technical data supporting the flooring company's assertion that this is better for your home than the tar felt. Good Luck!

This is getting more bizarre --

I am two weeks from delivery and two weeks from tomorrow they start the installation:

1) Contacted NOFMA-- "Never heard of anything like that... we and NWFA still recommend 15 lb. felt. You should contact Mirage and see what they say..."

2) Contacted Mirage -- "Never heard of anything like that but is sounds sound in principle. We would like to find out what it is and where they get it from. Did you every get a sample..."

Well, no. I have no sample. But if 420 sq. ft. of 15 lb felt is only $14, then I have no idea what this guy is talking about. Madison WI is not the end of the earth (but some people might think so )

So, with two weeks to go, I am still in search. I might just have to go to Home Depot and price the local price of 15lb. Roofing Paper and see where it goes from there...

More to come in this most bizarre thread.

AGE

If it were me and felt uncomfortable with the use of the poly vapor barrier i would go out and buy a few rolls of felt at tell the contractor this is what your using on my floor.
4 years ago i bought a pallet of the stuff and used felt first then the poly paper on top of that . we were trying to keep a subfloor moisture problem under controll for a builder who built 75 houses a yr and all the subfloors were still wet at installation time.
It didnt work

Yowsa!!!

I can't knock my wood flooring professional (or my home). I grilled them on the addition of 1/2" underlayment (1/2" sanded plywood) and he informs me that this is not stuff that is picked up at Home Depot the day of the install.

All their materials are stored with their woodflooring in their climate controlled warehouse. All underlayment is also kiln dried.

I trust these guys. MY problem is that they are a very casual outfit and as the owner said to me "... you are the first person who ever asked these questions..." He also did tell me that he would use felt if I insisted. I wanted to make sure that I am exhausting all resources before I make a decision.

For all I know, these guys are brilliant and they have found the next great product. That is why I do what I do for a living and they do what they do....

Thanks for all who have provided information and input. I will post more as it comes AND KD will get my marvelous before (OH, THE HORROR) pictures, the during (I can see beauty in the making) pictures, the after (now that the floors are in, where's that paint!) pictures, and then the final product (less our stairway carpeting replacement)...

AGE

But is that climate in the warehouse, the exact same as your home? The exact temperature and humidity? 10% difference in humidity or a 10 degree difference in temperature, is more then you think, when concerning moisture content of wood.

Do you have a huge garage door that you open every day, and hold it open for hours, until everyone is loaded up for the days work?


Everything made of wood, needs to be in your home, way ahead of the installation date. This includes the plywood.

Moisture content of the plywood and the flooring, are very important, and should be checked at the time of delivery, and daily, to see if the moisture content is what it is suppose to be, given the temperature & humidity inside your home.

At some point in life, you have to trust the professionals...

Here on Oct 12, 2004 in Madison, WI, it could be 30 degrees and snowing or 90 degrees and 38 percent humidity.


In the days leading up to my installation, it could be any combination of the above or change day to day...

My home could follow suit -- theoretically, the windows could be open and the humidity could be 80% with 65 degrees and sunny. I understand that I can control my environment --

So, If I have 13 sheets of 1/2" plywood and 420 sq. ft. of 3/4" boards, how long would it have to reside in my home with my furnace set to 68 degrees and my Aprilaire humidifier set to 45% relative humidity for all this mass to completely acclimate -- either DRY or increase in moisture? How dispersed would it need to be -- would the stack of plywood need to be spread out? Would my 21 boxes of wood flooring need to be pre-racked? At what point do you say "Good Enough".

AGE

I think your getting the hint, that it is not a "just slap it on the floor" type of job.

How long? To quote Howard Brickman" It is not a time thing, it is a moisture thing." When the probe type moisture meter reads a percentage of moisture, equaled to the constant climate controlled, temperature & Rh. It is called wood science. Not all installers are educated on wood science. That is why installation failures happen.

I have been certified by the NWFA, to do wood flooring inspections. What you speak of, I see the results weekly. I call it job security.

Ask your wood guys, if they are NOFMA or NWFA members. If they say yes, they should have there installation and technical manuals with them, as any smart installer would. Ask to see them.

All the information I'm telling you, can be found in those manuals.

They just had to change my install date from 12 Oct to 21 Oct which causes me to have to be in my home rather than my wife.

Muhahahahaha... They don't know what they are in for!!!

Honestly, these guys are not a Flooring company, they are a Custom Wood flooring and Custom Lumber shop and have a good rep. Currently, they are doing a majority of the installations in the $1.2 million homes near my very humble middle-class "shack." $1.2 mill. is a BIG DEAL in my little one horse town so don't laugh - (5000+ sq. ft., all high end mechanicals, 10+ft. ceilings, lots of architectural interest, on an Andy North designed golf course).

But, now that they moved it because of THEIR tight schedule, it means that I will be there when they arrive and will ask them to SHOW ME THE NUMBERS.

Like I said... Muhahahahahahhah.

Oh, and MENARDS (Mr. Billionaire) is selling 15 lb. Roofing Felt this week for $12.99 per 400 sq. ft. roll. Me thinks I will have my guys bring a roll -- I'll be a Big Man and give them the additional 20 sq. ft. from the 300 sq. ft. roll in my garage. Mighty big of me, isn't it.

Thanks again for keeping this thread going. I am learning.

AGE