I've been reading this board for quite some time now and really appreciate the great trade info everyone shares. I would like to ask your opinion on a matter of finger pointing as to the cause of cupped material. Though I am confident with my installation practices I would like to hear what others in the trade may have to think.

The specifics:

New construction, 2500ft 2 story w/ basement built on sandy soil, walking distance to large lake located in midwest. Fairly nice home but extrememly budget minded client. Client ordered prefinished 5" maple from ?? internet vendor vs. going site finished 3" with our materials. I informed client about problems assoc. with plank and relative humidity, site acclimation, maintaining ambient living cond after installation....

Acclimation period of about 3 weeks. Wood tested 7.6% avg with high and low of 6.5%-8%. Subfloor 8.5-9.5%, keeping me around 2% difference, good to go. Floor installed over 15lb felt using 2" staples ~8" spacing. Widest room about 20-25ft. Last few rows glued with PL400 and occasional face nail/shim. Maintained 1/2-3/4" exp gap at walls.

Floor is in everyone is happy, check is written!

4 mos later (near end of fall) client calls with minor cupping, immediately I go check moisture and find the underside of subfloor is 13+%. GC is still not done with house and I can literally see my breath inside because HVAC is turned so low. I inform client that HVAC must be maintained even if GC has, for what ever reason, not finished project 4 mos after floor was installed. Drywall subcontractor was on a call back at same time and also asked client why, after being informed about big temp changes and the ill effect this has on new homes, they are not maintaining proper conditions?

I kept polite but firm and state that this is not an installation related issue but a moisture-post installation related issue. I ask them to give the floor some time so we can see what the cause of increasted mositure. Client freaks and decides to have someone come and rip out floors. In doing so client finds that I have glued my outside rows, and claims the glue (PL400) used to finish last row was the reason the floor could not expand into the 3/4" expansion joint, thus resulting in cupping of entire floor....law suit pending..wife claims that their house is "not a museum" and therefor nearly impossible to maintain temp and RH as I told them they would have to do with plank malpe.

Thanks to anyone that took the time to read through this long winded post. I'm interested to hear your input as to liability in such a circumstance.

Thanks

I'd stand my ground on that one!!

If the circumstances at the time of installation were ideal, which it sounds like they were, then that is all you, as an installer can do. You cannot control future events nor are you responsible for the homeowners failing to fullfill their obligation to properly care and maintain their floors. And PL 400 is a recommended adhesive for use in flooring. Carlisle recommends it. The floors did not cup from the adhesive preventing expansion. The excessive humidity build up contributed. The RH should never exceed 60% and ideally, be maintained at 45 to 50%. I expect that there is also some moisture coming up from below in that basement. I do not see how you can be faulted or are liable. But in a law suit and the courts, many times, reason and fairness do not prevail. If you are being sued, I hope you have liability insurance.

sorry to butt into your post here.....does anyone have a standard form they use that instructs clients on RH and lays out the issues for liabilities such as this?

I don't but perhaps I should after hearing this story.

Sounds to me like the basement slab was poured after the hardwood floor went in. I saw that happen one time and it wasn't pretty. Explain to the lady that all wood floors need a controlled environment and you have no control over that part.

I started a few months ago giving my customers a cheap digital hygrometer along with a Bona floor cleaner kit. I set the hygrometer up when i start and have the homeowners keep a check on it with me. They are educated about RH and how dropping the AC temp 1 degree can lower the RH by 7 or 8 percent.

The job I am on right now is a good example. The day I brought the wood in the hygrometer read 77 degrees at 67 %RH. The lady backed the AC down to 75 and the RH had dropped to 54% when the AC cut off. They learned a good lesson and I didn't have to do anything.

It seems that trying to get clients/GC's to listen and understand the importance of maintaining RH within a home is like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

What do you guys do to get the point across? I was thinking about writing a short white paper on wood and moisture, perhapse borrowing from Bruce Hoadley's book - "Understanding Wood" and having the client/contractor read and sign the paper before I proceed with installations. To me this seems very sophomoric but people in general seem to sluff us off as overly parinoid floor guys that is until their floors start to cup.

If any of you folks are willing to share how you handle this issue I am sure we could all benefit.

Joining the NWFA, and having their technical manuals with me at all times. It is hard for a GC to argue with the book/bible of industry standards.

What ends up happening, they will drop you, the educated, for the uneducated, so they can dictate their jobs, to suit what the GC wants at the moment. They know they are not going to be able to pull a fast one on you and they are going to need at that time of failure, to be able to point the finger at the guy who has no clue.

I have educated and then walked away from several jobs where the GC's were clueless and the statement "we never did that before". They are having problems and looking for a better installation contractor that doesn't have those problems, yet they are unwilling to change their fast paced habits that is the real cause of all his problems. The wood installers were so clueless themselves, they would do whatever the GC wanted, and then be so stupid, they take the blame and have to fix it on their dime and time, until they wake up and they are in the poor house.

That is what SOME stupid GC's do. However, I have brought some of my GC's into " THE LIGHT" about doing things by the book and the correct way. Granted, these are custom home builders and not track hacks and we're working on 1/2 million to 5 million + $ projects. It's all how you train them. Gotta be able to smooze them and not belittle by saying, "See, I'm right and you're an ignorant knuckle dragger." That ain't gonna cut it with those type A personalities. I say things like, "you want me to do the job right, don't you?" and, "Are you telling the roofer to skip using asphalt felt over the roof deck? Then why are you telling me to skip the vapor barrier under the house?" Show them that doing it correctly the FIRST time saves them money and makes them look good. Those two things are THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS IN THE WORLD to general contractors, more than their schedule, their wives, their truck or their dog.

Sorry to add insult to possible injury ... but, what does your CONTRACT say about warranty on a floor and conditions outside your control.

If they pulled your floor because you stated "I refuse to fix this.." then you may have a slight problem. If you state in a certified letter that you are happy to waranty any problems FOUND BY A CERTIFIED HARD SURFACE INSPECTOR to be your fault then they MAY NOT have another company come and do work to YOUR floor at your expence.

Other people opinions mean nothing unless they have professional knowlege.

Stand your ground. A letter written before they had the floor jerked would've covered your butt. Now a judge may have rule on this ... but if you are sharp and ahead of them it sounds like you will win (AFTER MUCH OF YOUR TIME IS WASTED)