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 Post subject: Plywood over concrete
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 8:31 am 
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I am a newbie and need some advice regarding the subfloor. I am installing 3/4 plywood over concrete. When fastening the plywood to the concrete, do I use both glue and some kind of fasteners such as tapcons, nails, ... What's the preferred choice among tapcons, nails, hilti? Thank you.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:33 am 
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Tapcons work.

But first you need to test the concrete for vapor emissions, that you cannot see.

Are you using a vapor barrier?

What are the fasteners(tapcons) going to do to the moisture barrier?

Have you planned on this, and taken steps to prevent concrete moisture intrusion?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:09 pm 
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Thanks for the response Floorguy.
I am going to use a vapor barrier, a product from BR111 called StrateStuff Substrate Safeguard. On top of this, I will use a 6mil poly barrier.
Tapcons might take forever to drill (1000 sqft). It would be faster if I use a power tools like Aerosith's SurePIN, Ramset M150 driving nails to concrete. I am just wondering what the 'Pros' use?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 6:58 pm 
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If you cut your ply into 4x4 panels and cut 3/8" kerfs in the backside, you can rely mostly on the adhesive to do the holding. I prefer to glue and nail plywood to concrete and use 1&1/2" fluted masonry nails hand driven with a 2lb. sledge hammer. 1000 sq.ft. of ply is alot of work. In this case, the areosmith or similar makes sense. I've used powder activated (Hilti)and don't care for them.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 8:57 pm 
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This product outshines tapcons and PA fasteners.

http://www.ramset-redhead.com/redidrive_prod01.asp

Powder actuated tools tend to spall the concrete. Tapcons depend entirely upon the concrete's ability to hold on to a screw thread. The redi-drive is immune to complications caused by differences in various slab consistencies. Me likey long time.


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 Post subject: br-111
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 8:57 pm 
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strate seal from br-11 works real well, good choice...ttapcons aaare the way to go. aero smiith is way faster, need a huge compressor also. if your able to rent one then get it. will; make it a lot easier. I ca ttapcon real fast with 3 guys and 3 drills going..aero wll take minutes to fastenn a 4x8 shheet.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 9:02 pm 
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Here is a copy and paste from the wood flooring experts, forum. It was posted by Bob, in the inspectors area.







Quote:
I was at a recent project where floor gymnasiums failed. The inspector, based on his CACL tests claimed the moisture was coming from underneath..which I deemed close to impossible. In my assessment of the project, it was apparent to me that there was no significant source of moisture coming from the concrete itself (since the concrete slab was new, 8 inches thick, with a water-cement ratio of 0.45 - EXCELLENT concrete...kudos to the specifier and general contractor on that project!) Another inspection/testing company came in, who independently came to basically the same conclusions I did and upon further inspection, moisture became trapped between the waterproofed concrete surface and the impermeable flooring material through perimeter influences and improperly designed basketball, volleyball stanchions. There were a couple things wrong with the stanchions, one, theye were in direct contact with the concrete...which metal should NEVER be!!!! Metal can be 100 times more conductive than concrete, creating a gradient that can allow moisture to draw and/or collect in that area, two, the stancions were aluminum, which in direct contact with the concrete, creates an adverse chemical reaction and three the stancions were set all the way through the concrete, so when moisture would collect during the rainy periods, moisture would collect and rise up along side the stanchions and eventually spread out throughout any accessible areas between the floor and waterproofing. These conditions were in part, created by a 'wet lay-in' which has become an unfortunate trend in flooring installations.






This is not my research and findings, just some good information I have found useful.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 11:36 pm 
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COOL! But, how many basketball courts have you installed lately? Fail to see the relevence to residential construction! :?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 7:19 am 
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The fasteners that penetrate the moisture barrier, and go into the concrete.

Strate Stuff, is a topical application. The fasteners go below the surface. The fasteners holding the plywood, are the weak link.




I may be way off base here, but I feel there is relevance between the two.
This is just MHO, which doesn't have much weight. :D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 8:03 am 
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Gary wrote:
If you cut your ply into 4x4 panels and cut 3/8" kerfs in the backside, you can rely mostly on the adhesive to do the holding. I prefer to glue and nail plywood to concrete and use 1&1/2" fluted masonry nails hand driven with a 2lb. sledge hammer. 1000 sq.ft. of ply is alot of work. In this case, the areosmith or similar makes sense. I've used powder activated (Hilti)and don't care for them.


Thanks Gary,
Two questions:
1) How do you deal with the moisture? By glueing plywood to concrete you cannot have the vapor barrier?
2) Since you do both glue and nail, can you reduce the number of nails?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 11:36 am 
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You can have a vapor barrier and glue down. Here's how; 1) use a cheap, low grade vinyl floor and glue it to slab. Use a good grade vinyl adhesive and seal the seams. Then use Franklin's Advantage adhesive for your ply to vinyl adhesive. Nail just enough to hold ply into adhesive and prevent hollow spots. The vinyl is a vapor barrier, as is the Franklin urethane adhesive. The glue will seal around the fasteners. OR 2) Use Taylor's "Lockdown" concrete sealer and then use Taylor's 2170 meta -tek adhesive to glue ply to concrete. Again, adhesive will seal around fasteners. As for nailing, I nail where the ply is lifting up or hollw. Don't worry about a nailing pattern as the adhesive will do 90% of the holding, once cured. Nice thing about nailing is if there are hollow spots after the glue is dry, you can throw a nail in there to help. Also, the vinyl seems to help the concrete from spalling as bad when nailing. :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 3:11 pm 
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Thanks again Gary,

Do you still cut plywood into 4x4 and make kerfs when using the vinyl as the barrier? How many lines of 3/8" kerfs do you create per 4x4 piece? Which tool do you use to make the kerfs?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 07, 2004 9:38 pm 
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The reason for cutting the ply into 4x4 panels is plywood isn't flat ( but hopefully your slab is ) Smaller panels will lay down better. The kerfs on the BACKSIDE (the side that goes into the glue) are for allowing some flex in those stiff panels and again helps them to lay flat into the adhesive. To cut the kerfs, use a skill saw (circular saw) with the blade set no deeper than 3/8" then cut the kerfs in a 1 ft. grid pattern on the backside. They needn't be perfect. So, anyway, why are you going to all this trouble? Why not just forget the plywood and glue down Owen's PLANKFLOOR? You can sand and finish it like regular strip hardwood flooring. Seems to me it would make your job easier! Just a thought! :wink:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 12:27 am 
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Thank you everybody for your inputs. I am learning new ideas from you. It's the first time I plan to install a hardwood floor for myself and I want to know the available options. Thanks Gary for your detailed description.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 08, 2004 5:58 am 
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Quote:
Owen's PLANKFLOOR?


Yes, great option Gary, if you can find it. What's you take on the availibity? All I seem to get is 4-6 weeks out. We could have moved 5,000 square feet easily last month if it was available

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