Hi all,

I have owned and operated a carpet and upholstery cleaning business for over a decade. We have expanded into hardwood cleaning and polishing, but no sanding yet.

As I get up into my "high 40s" it is getting more and more demanding on my body to keep up a carpet cleaning career full time. Don't get me wrong! I can still do an amazing job, but it's hard to do it for 40-60 hours a week.
In my area finding a worker to train and mold into a technician to take my place has proven impossible. In short, nobody wants this job.
I need to sell out and get into a new career.

Sanding and refinishing hardwood floors has always intrigued me, it seems like something I would enjoy doing. I also feel there is an ever increasing demand for this service and should be highly lucrative if I manage my pricing and costs efficiently. Everybody is getting rid of their carpet and going with hardwood, and much of this involves sanding and refinishing.
This is just a new direction I wish to take but also need to learn as much as possible before taking the leap.

I also am not trying to say the workload would be easy on the body. Im sure it is hard work as any contracting job, but from what I see, not as physically demanding as full time carpet cleaning has been for me. I think I would find just by being a different career, to be a refreshing change.

I also believe I would be well suited to this job because of my years of paying attention to detail, being a perfectionist, particularly with flooring. I already have several years of cleaning and polishing hardwood under my belt. It's time to take the next step.

I have been doing all I can to research this, including coming to this forum and hopefully I can find some insight here from a few professionals in the industry, just as I have for years, been part of the carpet cleaning forums.

I have viewed dozens of instructional videos on Youtube, but they all appear to have a different method. So which is the best? I may have to find out on my own with trial and error.

The method I have like the best, just by viewing and reading is the minwax system. It seems like the safest, and highest quality product and system. I also want to see if I can do floors without using a drum sander, and only using the "square scrub" orbital sander. Again, only experience will tell me if that is going to work. Many videos have suggested it will, even on heavily scratched floors, but many "old timers" tell me it cannot be done without the drum sander.

My business is insured against liability which is going to give some peace of mind should I start this endeavor. I need to do a few jobs, take pics, and maybe post some here for review and tips to continuously expand ideas and improve until I become as proficient at this as I am at carpet cleaning.

Any tips would be appreciated, thanks for reading my book!

Lots of variables. You have to have a belt sander, edger, buffer and a good vac or you will be hating life. It's not that bad of a investment all new you could get into for about 10 grand. If i were you and wanted to swap directions i would look into just cleaning and recoating floors as my main objective. There are a few franchises that do that (i wouldnt get involved in a franchise) but some of the models are pretty good. The hardwood flooring manufactures have been going after maintenance of wood floors for years but most traditional guys just want to fully sand the floor. Ive thought of closing shop and doing it myself. if you were just doing maintenance (cleaning and recoating) then you could get by with a square buff.

Thanks for the reply. I have already been doing cleaning and coating of floors as a scrub and polish technique. It does a nice job but will not remove any scratches. The problem with just cleaning and coating is there is not enough demand. Even after doing that for several years I still only get maybe 1 job a month and I am well known in my area as the guy that does it. However, with sand and refinish almost everyone I talk to is interested.

If you are talking about me using a square buff, that is a sander of sorts anyway, maybe we have different ideas of what a clean and coating is.

I was going to post an example pic but they want it to be specially formatted before it will let me post it here. I dont have all the software and
savvy to be photoshopping every pic so I won't be able to post it.

If the floor just needs a spruce up, then a light sanding with a square scrub, do the edges with a palm sander may suffice?

My father in law has a lot of experience with wood refinishing and mentions that when you get into staining, what looks like nicely sanded wood can turn into a finishing nightmare once you apply stain. Hopefully he is only thinking of the softer woods. Minwax has a wood conditioner that is supposed to address the issue of scratches from sanding showing up when applying stain. Let me know if you agree.

If I were you I'd go into carpet and tile cleaning, xnay the wood floor refinishing cus you can screw up tens of thousands of dollars of flooring if you don't know what your doing.

I'm already into carpet and tile cleaning. I've been doing that for 15 years. Ten years as my own business. I want to get out of it and into something else. There is always the chance to screw up a floor, or a carpet, or a car or whatever it is you are working on. That is what insurance and lots and lots of training is for.

I am hoping to get tips on how to get started in the business.

Hi to ya, Expert Carpet Guy--


I think the job is more physically demanding than you might think. Most guys approaching fifty want to be managing floor companies, not starting them. You already know the difficulties in finding skilled labor that can do the work while you keep the books and do estimates. You'd have to work the jobs yourself for some time.

I'd try hiring on to a floor company, while still doing your own business. If you pay attention to detail and you already know how to work quickly, your age shouldn't be a problem for them. I'd be upfront about what you're looking to get out of working with them.

You shouldn't expect to make great pay, until you've got at least one marketable floor skill down. See if you can do all the tasks required, and find out if you like the work.

I'd also work out a deal with your father-in-law, so he can show you what he knows about staining. That's one of the hardest things you'll have to learn to do.

Thanks Alloy.

I guess I feel that a change is as good as a rest too.
I definitely know that hardwood refinishing will not be "easy" work.
At 47 I wish I could be managing and training, but as you said, finding willing and capable labor is difficult at best. Especially when so much training is involved. I have already spoken with a few of the flooring installers in the area, we have worked together over the years as they refer carpet and tile cleaning jobs to me all the time. They have been very reluctant to help me get started into refinishing. It could be because they are worried about me competing. It seems everywhere I turn to for advice people try only to discourage me from doing this, but I'm going to try it anyway and see for myself. I will be renting the tools at first before making any serious investment. I am also aware that starting out I won't be making a lot of money at it. It's about learning at first, honing and developing the skills. There will be trial and error and a learning curve. Just as there was with carpet and upholstery cleaning.

I think the beginning focus will be on doing quality work, and even if I end up breaking even, or losing money on the first few jobs, I can analyze the expenses, time and effort against the profits and make adjustments until I am in the sweet spot.

As for bookwork and office management, my wife and business partner of 15 years is quite capable of handling all that including answering phones and managing our employee that works at the shop. I am even going to keep trying to find and train a carpet cleaning tech who can go out and do carpets while I work on the hardwood refinishing.

Since our company is already up and running, well known and established in the area, there will be no need to spend a lot on marketing or waiting for things to "develop" like when you start from scratch.

Thanks again for the feedback, even if some are just saying "dont bother" as their advice. All advice will be filed accordingly. Any feedback is welcome and it allows me to get my thoughts out and entertain ideas while working on potential issues.

In the end, as I said, I will know after a few jobs if this is something I wish to pursue. Also I will know if I am charging enough and respond accordingly.

Cheers,

Rich

Business liability insurance does not cover you screwing up jobs. It covers you when you damage the property like buring down the house. Unless you get special coverage which costs a lot and not many companies cover that.

Mine covers me "Screwing up" the job. It was mandatory in my business in order to land any commercial contracts. I have to provide proof of it all the time. I think we pay a little over $100 a month for it.

I am interested in that insurance company.
I have a commercial side to my company that install heat weld vinyl products. I spend 100s of dollars a month and no sort of coverage like that.

My first advice is run away. You have a long and hard road ahead of you. Fought with many life lessons. I hope I am past those, I certainly don't wish to seek them out, and I am not your age.
Second I understand the companies not wanting to hire you I wouldn't either I am in a smaller market and I make my guys sign no compete contracts. I don't care to train my competition, give them my trade secrets and my business contacts. If someone comes in and competes that's one thing.

However if you are desperate to go down that long hard road, I would talk to rental management companies tell them the your looking to get into the trade and offer cheap services that way you get some experience from someone not as picky as a homeowner and get your foot in the door at the same time. If all goes well branch out to some of the relators in the area they may try you out on some investment properties and you can start to build your rep that way.

I agree though they floor maintenance would be the much easier and safer route. I think that is the best advice given.
Serious though about that insurance.

I just cannot believe that anyone I talk to that works in this industry tries to talk me out of starting this. If it was really that bad why are you doing it for so long? Why are you not doing something else?

What would happen if everyone in the world listened to the "dont bother" advice? We would have NO floor re-finishers.

I keep hearing from guys that have refinishing floors for decades, that it is a bad idea to start doing this, and yet they themselves have been doing this for years. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't add up.

If it's a fear of competition you have nothing to fear, I am half a continent away. There would be no chance of you losing business to me. Thats why we use worldwide internet forums so that we can talk about our trade to others in the industry without worrying about competition.

You want to know about a long hard road? Try starting a carpet cleaning business from scratch with no money except a very small loan from a customer because nobody in the family would help with so much as a dime. I was told then not to bother too. I was told I wouldn't last six months by anyone else in the industry that I spoke to about it. That was ten years ago. Today that business brings in 200k a year. The only reason I want to get out of it is because Im too busy. But yes, it was a long hard road to get there. Nothing comes easy.

Does anyone know a forum with professional floor refinishers that arent paranoid about competion, that have pride in what they do and wont just sit back and tell everyone else not to bother getting into it, all in fear of others touching their business? I mean.. really. You guys have to realize you are not the only people in the world that can do this.
It's ridiculous that everyone else in this industry has no faith in what they, or anyone else can do.

Im not finding it hard to find work. It is never hard to find work for someone that is willing to do it. In my area contractors may, or may not show up, do a couple hours work, then go fishing. Then they wonder why they are not making money in this business. I already have multiple jobs lined up and I havent even begun. After the first few jobs I will then know whether or not this is something to persue.

Well it is a big investment to be able to start and do it right.
It isn't something that anyone can just do it takes years of training and experience to be able to do it right. I am a 3rd generation it has been handed down through my family to me.
I don't gather you have the tools or the experience or the knowledge to do this.
We aren't afraid of you coming into the business we aren't afraid of your competition.
You asked for our advice. I am not trying to sound mean however if you are looking to jump into this with no tools and no experience, chances are you won't succeed.
I think the advice that has been given is really something to consider it is giving you an honest opinion based on the information you have given us and the knowledge we have of the trade.
Whatever you decide I give you my best wishes.

You could try the NWFA forum. It looks to be a tame group of guys. The guys here are too, but floor people can be an odd lot, maybe it's the internet, or certain subjects bring out the strange. I think you had sound advice, particularly taking it SLOW to start. I had similar problems when I made a huge change in careers in my mid 30's but then it was carpet...LOL

I thank God those guys didn't want to help!! I quit after six months when we landed our first hardwood job (went elsewhere). They could have looked at me as competition, but I think another part of it had to do with how they were taught the trade where some went through four year journeyman programs and learned to respect that kind of training and what the end result brings.

I'm not saying no, but I gotta wonder about the age thing. Try the NWFA forum. I'd be curious of their opinions.

hardwoodfloorsmag.com/forum/forum8-sanding--finishing.aspx

No we are not paranoid of competition. I have been in the flooring business for 20+ years refinishing for around 6. I got into refinishing when the economy sucked and I had to add something to my portfolio to stay busy. I hate it, would rather install any day. You think this would be easier then cleaning carpet? Wait till you have to get a 220 lb sander up to the 3rd floor of a house. My helper used to own a carpet cleaning business when he was younger (70 now) he doesn't do any of the sanding and doesn't want to but says he would clean carpets before doing what I do. And The reason I still do it, Is quite simple I am good at it, and what else do I do at almost 50 and having worked for myself for so long.

The best way to learn sanding and finishing is to get hired by a company that already does that .That effectively gets you in a situation where you are paid to learn.
The down side to this is that most sanding and finishing contractors cut every corner possible so you will likely learn some bad habits too.

As far as business model, there are really only two . Be a one man show and work a lot of hours and keep your money or hire two or more crews and estimate and advertise enough to keep them busy.

You have to pick your poison there because most companies exist on volume and only a few talented guys make money as one man shows.

Once you're ready to get started, file your paperwork with your town and state , buy the equipment that you want and start working.

Minimal equipment would be :
1 big machine belt sander (Hummel,Galaxy,Bona)
1 edger (Clarke/Alto 7R or B2 )
1 disc buffer (Bona,Clarke,etc)
1 canister vacuum for connecting to your edger and buffer
1 back pack vacuum for vacuuming floors clean

Some contractors still refuse to use dust control sanders and vac systems but I get a most of my business based on my reputation , part of which is not blowing dust all over customer's homes .