Another question I'd like to ask since this seems to be the tread thread -


My treads for the open part of my stairs have a applied 1 1/2" nosing on the front of the tread which means that the nosing on the end is also 1 1/2".

Is it typical to have an applied nosing on the front of the tread? Why not just round over the body of the tread? Also, isn't 1 1/2" a little long? The problem is that if you have to put 3 balusters per tread, the baluster ends up uncomfortably close to the nosing.

I have a landing which has a landing tread on the open side. The landing tread I was supplied with has a 1" nosing. Now the treads stand 1 1/2" proud off the outside skirt while the landing tread is 1" proud. Not a real big deal but it seems like the manufacturer should be consistent, no?

The other issue with the tread nosing relates to the housed stringer. The book I have warns that often the shape or profile of the nosing is not always consistent from tread to tread. I found this to be the case. I made my housed stringer dado jig based on a tread sample but some of the treads did not fit perfectly in the nosing area. Again no big deal but I'd like to know what is typically done for this. My book recommended that the treads be reshaped with a roundover bit. It almost seems like if you have to go through all of this you might as well make your own treads if you have the equipment. In fact, if you can find enough wide solid stock why not make your own tread?

Thanks

Yes, AlexH:
You are right on all counts. I want to replace the carpeted stairs with oak strip flooring. The supplier I bought flooring from also sells stair nosing and the strip boards (they also stain them to match the oak planks) to go under the railing on the upper floor landing. I have some stairs that are open and the rest boxed or closed. I have seen the plugs you talk about at the base of the newel posts.
I hope to remove the railings (the railing is short on the stairs, and long, L-shaped on the upper landing) and then reinstall them once the hardwood strip flooring is installed. I was hoping to remove the railing and position it above the new treads (or strip on the upper landing), make sure the balusters are vertical, and then mark for the hole locations.
All of the railings, etc. are stained, not painted.
The base of the balusters are square and I can't tell what is underneath the base. Is it a doweled end?
Another question:
To put hardwood flooring on the upper landing, I'm thinking I must do the stairs first, from bottom to top. Then install hardwood flooring from the top step nosing toward the near wall and then from the first flooring strip that I attach to the nosing, go in the opposite direction to the far wall (the upper landing is kind of a U shape, with the bottom of the U being about 20 ft; the top of the U is where the staircase is). Of course, before I start laying the upper landing floor, I'll have to remove the railing, and install the strips (that receive the balusters) along the edge of the landing.
Does this sound like a plan?
Does anyone have a recommendation on what to use for fall protection while the railing on the upper landing is removed?
Thanks. This is a great forum on subjects not easily found!

yes,

The balusters should have a dowel on the bottom. My railing had a plug where it ended on a wall - same removal technique as the newel if you have the same arrangement. I think that railings are usually glued onto the pin top newel. Hopefully you can get it off by pounding from underneath with a rubber mallet for newels that remain in place if any. I think what will require some patience is getting the balusters out of the railing. You will have to try to pull the nail or staple out not only to try to save the balusters but the railing could be damaged if you lever out the baluster.

I was originally going to use my current railing and to get accurate baluster holes I was planning on using a small piece of dowel or balsuter that fits snugly in the railing hole. Then screw a small eye hook into the center of the dowel. Then you can use this to hold the string bob dead center in the hole while you mark the position on your tread or landing.

The other issue I had was getting a tight 45 deg miter on my landing nosing. In the past even when I had lousy tools I would fuss over the miter to get it real tight. All my efforts were in vain because I simply nailed or screwed them down and the miters would open after a while. This time, I cut the 45's, put 2 biscuit slots with the stock upside down and using a table as a reference for the plate joiner. Since it's difficult or impossible to clamp one 45 corner, I used epoxy on the joint instead of white glue and held it as it dried. Perhaps it's overkill but you don't want this joint opening.

On your U shaped landing if I understand correctly one leg of the U is 20 feet long and you want the flooring in one leg to run 90 deg to the other? Not sure what looks best in this case. i would start laying flooring from the nosing so you don't end up with a partial strip at the nosing.

No idea how to implement fall protection without dmaging your walls.

One other thing - The reason I scrapped my railing is because the hole location would not work with the new treads. Apparantly the false treads that were in place before had a very small nosing - perhaps 3/4" or less. My new treads, having a nosing of 1 1/2" would interfere with the original buluster placement. The only reason I had this problem is because I had a unusual baluster spacing where every other tread a baluster would be very close to the riser. Check this carefully before you proceed.

William,

I almost put strip on treads once and I was wondering what the best way to do it is. It seems like you have to scribe the board that is against the riser. That means that you would put this board in first because I would think it would be really difficult to do it last plus you would probably have to cut the tongue off to get it in (assuming tongue points to front). Also, this board would have to be scribed to the correct width so the first board after the nosing would not have to ripped.

So to summarize what I think would be a good way to do it -

1. Determine correct width of last board against riser. Scribe to width against riser and face nail at rear/blind nail front (tongue facing front).
2. Install full width boards blind nailing/gluing.
3. Install nosing (or landing tread if you prefer) gluing/face nailing or use trim head screws.

Am I making any sense here?


Also, do you plan to glue and face nail? If the tongue points forward could you blind nail by hand? How about the nosings? Seems like they are under a lot of stress so a good glue + face nail would be mandatory or even screws.

I would also think that you would want to use urethane glue. I saw a test once of several types of glue (gap filling glues only) and they said the only one that was stronger than the wood was the urethane.

Finally, how do you sand the treads, with an RO sander?

Hi guys,
The standard reveal for stair nosings (landing strips) is 1&1/4". This is is what should be used for treads as well. Ideally, they should/would be the same. I am aware some prefinished nosings are less (1") and are not the full thickness in front (1&1/16"). This makes for a problem that can be solved by using unfinished moldings that are the correct size and do the finishing yourself. Solid 1&1/16" stair treads should NOT have the round over applied but just round over the the front with a 1/2" round over bit or a full 1/2 round bit. This is the way I have always seen my treads made. The only time I see a half round applied to a step is when a installer built the steps from flooring. It is not difficult to make your own treads. You do not need 12" wide stock. You will need: table saw, bisquit joiner, yellow glue, two or three good bar clamps, router with 1/2" round over bit. Buy your tread stock SAS4 (sufaced on four sides). If you can get 5/4" stock it is easier. If not, 3/4" will work. Get (3) 4" boards for each tread. Arrange them in a pleasing appearence grain match wise. Join them sideways with your bisquit machine and clamp up. When dry, belt sand flush. Round over front and your done. If using 3/4" stock and you want the full 1&1/16" front round over, simply buy some 5/16" flooring and rip it to 1&1/4" and glue it to the bottom of your tread on the front before you round over. I use this tread making system when I need curved steps.
When installing flooring for steps (treads), if using 3/4" T&G flooring, I will start installing at the riser with the tongue out and blind nail through the tongue. If using wide stock, I'll glue as well. Not really needed for 2&1/4" flooring, IMO. To do this well, place a scrap piece of stair nose on the front and draw a line. Measure back to your riser. Say it is 9" and you're using 2&1/4" flooring, then you will not need to rip the first board as 4x2&1/4"=9". Install first board against riser and blind nail. This is the best looking way. I have seen hacks face nail all the boards starting from the nosing. IMO, it looks poor. Good luck!

Gary,

Thanks. Do you use trim head screws on the nosing?


Also, I don't know if it's necessary but I looked high and low for spiral finish nails (for the first 2 strips) and all I found are these -

http://www.mazenails.com/catalog/catalo ... group=FLC2

Do you use or recommend spiral nails?

Finally I would like to ask about sanding my 2 4'x4' landings. I have a Makita 1/2 sheet RO sander. Do you think it's practical to sand the landings with this sander? This way I could finish all of my stain grade stair parts myself. Otherwise I would have the floor sanding pro do it for me but I'm a little concerned about him damaging my trim around the landing. Do they typically use an edger on the whole landing?

Thanks

PS. My Braz Cherry 1 1/32" thick treads have an applied roundover on the front. Perhaps they did this because they put the end return on for me and it makes it a little easier to get a clean miter. Maybe next time I'll gang cut the miter for the end return with a skil saw but I didn't have the guts to cut $700 worth of treads with one cut.

alexh,
Honestly, very few installers actually use spiral shank flooring nails. The ones on that site look about right. Mostly, pro installers use pnuematic nail guns and glue. I will use #8 smooth shank finish nails sometimes, spaced about 10 to 12" apart. Spiral shank flooring nails are used to hand nail T&G 3/4" and greater flooring. If you're not hand nailing the flooring, there is no reason to use these. Most pro installers use the nail guns to face nail and blind nail the areas where the nailing machine will not work and for starting courses. I use that method 99% of the time. If your nosings have a groove on the floor side, use that to lock the flooring into the nosing. This will give the nose much more strength. You will probably need to use spline if the flooring runs paralell. If your flooring will be at 90 deg. to the nose, use the tongue end of the floor boards to engage into the groove of the nosing. This is the way I prefer to do it. Sometimes, nosings don't have the groove so either make your own or use a good construction adhesive to glue the nosing down and then nail with finish nails. Trim heads hold better but make a bigger hole to fill. As far as sanding landings, you could try using an orbital. I've never tried it because I always use an edger sander. If the orbital isn't cutting it, instead of hiring someone, you could rent an edger and sand it yourself. Personally, as a pro, I wouldn't bother doing a little job like that. Not financially worth it. But you may find someone who will do it. Depends on where you live and how busy everyone is.

Still on the same subject of using 2-1/4" hardwood flooring for stair treads. I will use painted risers, so the hardwood flooring would be used for treads only.
I've read the article on the DIY of using hardwood flooring for stairs, but it does not address the issue of returns on open stairs. How is that done?
Would you miter the nosing at 45 degrees? The tongues on the flooring will facing the return.
The local supplier I use sells solid treads with integral returns. The returns he sells individually are not grooved. Any suggestions?
Also, as I mentioned before, I'll have to install balusters on some of the treads. Is that done after the flooring strips (tread) is installed? If so, it seems risky if the holes are off.
There must be a way to match up the holes in the existing tread with where they would line up on the new treads. Could you put dowels in the old holes and use carbon paper somehow? What do the pros do? Using a level would be okay for lining up a few holes, but doing that on a landing with many balusters would be challenging! Thanks.

Still some more questions:
The floor where the stairs begin is hardwood. When I replace the carpeted stairs, will the first riser set on the floor? Or do I have to remove the first piece of hdwd flooring?
If I want painted risers and the substrate riser is not satisfactory, do I pull it off and add the riser or do I nail the new riser to the substrate riser? What is the thickness of the typical riser material? Will I have to rip it?
If I decide on solid treads, how can I join the returns to the treads without spending a bunch of money on tools? Is there an alignment tool I can use with a drill to dowel the pieces together?

Lots of ?'s Will. I'll see if I can help.
If you are using flooring for the treads, for the "open" end, you 45 miter a piece of nosing to create your own stair nose return. And extend a notched out nose section past the riser the depth of the nosing return. ( nose return=1&1/4", extend 45 nose piece 1&1/4" past riser)
If your supplier sells solid treads with returns, I'd opt for that because then all you need to do is scribe the end that butts into the skirt board on the other end of the tread, cut your scribe line and viola', you're ready to install. You ALWAYS install balusters after the treads/flooring is in. In this phase, double and triple check your measurement and hole location so you don't screw up. Use a GOOD, NEW drill bit ; no spade bits here. Pros figure out baluster spacing first according to code requirements and appearance. They the usualy drill the holes for the balusters in the treads first then use a level to transfer those holes to the handrail. No one tries to use the old hole location as a template for new holes. Once you get the first baluster plumb, you simply cut a piece of wood the exact distance you need between the balusters and use that as a guide for location. Quite simple really. Doble check with your level to ensure balusters are plumb. BYW, if it ain't perfect, don't sweat it. Most baluster/ handrails aren't. Just install the first riser on top of the existing wood floor. Why make the job difficult. The existing "substrate" riser will be full ofstaples, nails and look like crap so don't even consider trying to paint that. A total waste of time. Instead, you install new riser stock to that. Since you leave the existing riser in place, you are overlaying a peice of material that is non structural. It performs no assist in the strucural integrity of the staircase so it can be any thickness that works out. If you are planning on having one end of the risers mitered to engage with the open ended stair skirt, you will want to use 1/2" stock at least. Anything thinner is just not beefy enough. Materials that work well are MDF, poplar, a good grade of pine maple. These all paint well with maple being the best, poplar at #2, and MDF and clear pine most affordable. If the solid treads do not have the returns already attached, you can attach the returns using the following methods.
1) My favorite. Use a biquit joiner and biquits with yellow glue and long bar clamps.
2) Cut a slot length wise and use a spline with clamps and glue
3) use dowels and glue
4) Use finish nails and glue. The old timers method. Of course, you then have nail holes to fill in the side of the retrn.
Or, you can ask the supplier to attach them for you.

Gary:
Thanks for your advice.
If I use the nosing for the return on the open steps, won't the nosing project too far into the tread area? The nosing I've seen looks fairly wide.
How does one drill the holes properly in using dowels to attach two pieces of wood, like the return and tread? Does a jig have to be made?
Could you explain the process of scribing a line for cutting the tread that you mentioned? I can picture it in my mind, but am not sure I could do it without a step by step procedure. I can see that, by scribing, you can match the angle of the skirt onto the tread, but what about cutting the right width on the tread? What tool do the pros use for scribing?
Thanks for your help

I personally think that a 1 piece tread is the way to go. They are readily available in my area with the return in place. You would ask for a oak stair tread "MRT-1E" (Mitered return 1 end). Buy them longer and cut them back to your scribe line.

I use a "Wheaton Stair Wizard" to pattern my risers and treads. It was well worth the money for me.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 3?v=glance

If you are interested in a good book that details stair construction look at "Constructing Staircases, Balustrades, & Landings" by William P. Spence.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... 3?v=glance

Well, I've bought the extra flooring strips and nosing for the steps. Does the oak nosing need a sealer or just stain and several coats of varnish? Would you apply sealer first if needed?
I saw flooring sealer in gallon cans at Home Depot. I assume itis used for unfinished hdwd flooring. Is this okay or can someone recommend a brand?
I plan to use white painted risers. Would an oak plywood be acceptable? What thickness? Home Depot carries 1/4" & 1/2". Should I paint the risers before installation?
Another question. The article on this website recommends urethane glue for the hdwd flooring strips on stairs. I saw a 5 gal size of this at HD for $128. Are there smaller gallon sizes? Why so expensive?
Do most people do one step at a time? If so, I guess the glue trowel must be cleaned after each step!
Thanks for a great forum!

One big problem with using srips for treads is they will require machine sanding after installation. Heavy sanding, relatively. They will not look nearly as good over the years as solid treads either. Expansion, contraction, dirt in the cracks, etc...
Going way back in this thread, I use a (good!) jigsaw to cut treads. By the time you try to get a tread angle perfectly lined up with some sliding saw, you can easily get it well done with the jig. I cut with a slightly angled blade, except where the nosing shows, to facilite getting the tread between two stringers in a closed staircase. Allows for easily sanding an edge to get the perfect fit too.
I hava stair wizard too, but an old carpenter showed me a way to use two sticks. a small needlenose visegrips and square to measure the insides, front and rear. The riser should have been installed square to start with if you did it and the bottom of it should be 'floating' to allow for minute adjustments before nailing the tread. Shims are your friend.
I wouldn't think of using finish gun nails although with adhesive a case could be made. Sometimes I use 8d green(glue) finish nails but I usually drill for countersunk screws with oak plugs. A little more work and requires some sanding, but substantially better product. Whenever I install stairs, I think of the squeeky step in The Winter of Our Discontent My stairs will not creak or squeek in a hundred years. You did severely overscrew your sub-ply if its there, right?
Nosings shpuld be 1 1/4". If you have 1 1/2", rip the backside, again with a slight angle on the blade. 2 degrees is fine. I've been reading about routing the riser to allow the tread to fit in, I may try this next time for some overkill and a truly crackproof tread/riser combo....
Not sure I understood about the different nosings sizes on the treads, but if your nosings are not the same size/shape, you need to find another supplier.
For nailing a return on an outside edge, glue and finish nailer if there is no weight bearing. If weightbearing- route, spline, glue, nails. Cut angle for return with jigsaw. If I could have only one saw, it would be the (good!) jigsaw.

Just a few ideas to chew on...

There was quite a bit of color variation from tread to tread and even within the 2 boards used to make treads. Luckily I saved the tread cutoffs and I made plugs from the cutoffs so the color match is near perfect. I tried to be smart and used 1/4" plugs but there is no 1/4" Fuller style countersink bit so I had to enlarge the hole (7/32 original hole for trim heads) with a 1/4" bit and some of the holes were not perfectly clean. Nothing a little filler won't fix but I don't think 1/4" plugs are necessarily better than 3/8" and they have a Fuller combo for the 3/8".



I did a slotted riser with tougue on back of tread because this is how the book says to do it. It definitely makes a nice crack free joint but the slot has to be very accurately placed in relation the the bottom of the riser and stringer. If the slot is too high, the back of the tread will be held off of the stringers. If it's too low you can't get the tread in. The best solution IMO is too make the slot slightly low so you are sure that the tread is resting on the stringer and use a tread to position the riser before you permanently attach the riser to the stringer/mitered skirt. Unfortunately I installed all of my mitered risers before the treads and I had to make a lot of small adjustments to get all of the treads in. One of the details they don't mention in the book.




The profile on the nose varied slightly from tread to tread and I think the tread thickness varies enough to make a difference. Of course this only becomes an issue if you are using a housed stringer. If I did this again I would consider buying rough stock and milling it myself or use a different supplier as you said. Do they usually make stairs with a housed stringer off site? Reason I ask it was a real SOB to get the stringer lined up with the framing stringers perfectly. I ended up having to drill 2 oversized holes in the housed stringer and then snug it with lags so I could micro adjust it before permanently attaching it. Another detail thing they don't mention in the book...



Marco,

You are local to me - I'll send you my e-mail address. I have about 600 sf that needs sanding/finishing (assuming you also do that work).