I was wondering if anyone could verify that NOFMA has set overwood tolerance standards for factory finished flooring. I've found a couple articles from 2002 stating that for prime grade it's 0.012, standard 0.016, tavern grade 0.020. I couldn't access any of the technical publications and have checked both the NOFMA & NWFA sites. The article indicated the non finished flooring standards to be 0.020 for No. 1 common or better and 0.030 for No. 2 common.

I have an independent inspector coming to check a partial install job and it would be good to know if the standards do exist. Bruce 2 1/4 strip, prefininshed oak.

I think the article you saw was refering to unfinished ,maybe a typo or something. Never heard of an overwood tolerance for pre-finished. There definetely should be. I'm all ears if someone finds one.

I'm sure it was talking about factory finished flooring. I would think that would be prefinished where it also mentions different tolerances. Here is a link to the article:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... n25051621/

I don't know where the standards would be listed in the NOFMA. It's not in the installation manual, and I couldn't find it in any of the tips. It looks like only members have access to the technical publications. I tried searching for several hours to find the standards listed somewhere else but had no luck, and I kept getting linked back to the NOFMA site for more information. If someone could check, it would be a good thing to know. The article sound legit, but it is 8 years old.

Since the NWFA bought out NOFMA, hides the standards from the consumers and installation community unless you pay $$$, and basically caters to manufacturers not the installation community, but certify's it's own inspectors......do you think this is a conflict of interest?

I believe the article talking about "factory finished" is referring to the spec of a final factory dimension & sanding. Also relating the spec to overwood to elimate sanding on the job. Notice they are specifying the specs on the different grades. Using the word "finished" is a little confusing, but IMO it means the finished specs of the unfinished wood. This is not factory "pre-finished". I have searched myself in the old NOFMA book and NWFA ( NWFA took over NOFMA)

Here is the second paragraph of that article. It defiantly says factory finished. If it is correct it's about time.

Tolerances are tighter for factory finished flooring to eliminate on-site sanding: 0.012 inches for Prime Grade; 0.016 inches for Standard Grade; and 0.020 inches for Tavern Grade. The tongue and groove fit tolerances are NOFMA proprietary standards and must be measured with a NOFMA flooring gauge

Jeff, do you think their talking about pre-finished, and we haven't heard about this for 8 years? and not raw wood ? "Finished" can have different definitions. Maybe I'm reading between the lines too much, just weird to me that their talking grades.

The magazine of the NWFA “Hardwood Floors” has an article in the June/July 06 issue called “Prefinished Pizazz- Spruce up your factory finished floors” It’s clear from this and other articles I’ve come across that when talking about a Factory finished floors, it’s a prefinished floor.

On the NOFMA website, you can click on the Magazine of the NFWA “Hardwood Floors” and search out all articles published from 1997 – 2009. The Nov 2009 issue is a reference issue that lists a plethora of information, including all the articles by category. The article list starts at page 393. It’s quicker to use to download via pdf than using the on site reader.

Because of copyright protections I can’t copy the article but in the Aug/Sept 06 issue I found an article called “From Ipe’ to Perm Rating”. It talks about uneven edges and states any overwood the thichness of a business card is acceptable. They go on to talk about the 5% allowance for defective material, with the understanding that it’s the installer responsibility not to install the defective material, and that overwood falls into what the customer expectations are. As far as I’m concerned, when a prefinished floor goes down on a good subfloor, and when all the required installation criteria has been met, the floor should be tight with no noticeable overwood. If 95% of the butt joints are smooth to the touch, why would someone agree to have the remaining joints not smooth. A business card is approximately 0.011 to 0.013 thick. Most of my overwood spots are 0.015 thick. I have some that are 0.020 to 0.035. I know 0.015 to 0.020 don’t sound like much but when your dealing with a square end butt joint with no bevel, it’s noticeable.

I have an inspector coming out to inspect the job. I don’t know what to expect and I have a BIG problem with the entire process. The NOFMA/NWFA are not consumer friendly and I agree with what floormeintucson said “NOFMA, hides the standards from the consumers…… caters to manufacturers”. When I called the manufacturer to ask about the overwood, I asked what is the acceptable allowance. They could not or would not tell me. What I was told is to stop the installation process and THEY would pay for an independent inspector to come out to inspect the installation. If they are trained, certified by NOFMA, and paid by the manufacturer, it seems one sided. With very little technical information available, the average guy is in a no win situation. I don’t know if my flooring is prime grade or standard. It’s not on the box. When I asked Bruce I was told it was the better grade not the best grade, but they were talking about the finish (15yr vs 20yr), not the grade of the milling process.

I think there are too many loop holes for manufactures to jump through when it comes to their product.
They don’t publish their acceptable tolerances.
They don’t tell you what grade/class your product is. It should be on the box.
They can blame the site prep.
They can blame the installer.
They can blame the 5% milling/defective product guideline.
They can blame the customer by expecting too much. And yes I know it’s a natural product that is affected by everything in the environment, including the weather.

I'm not being smart . . . . but, who has the issue here -contractor or home owner- . . . there are some
prefinished floors with less overwood. BUT ... you pay for quality. Good Luck. . .try to do what you can to "play the problem down" . . . . don't try to make a VW look like a BENZ.

Again you all ready know the inspector has conflict of interest . . . chew on his leg, but not in front of the home owner. dan@pro

Yup , been one sided for ever.
I know you dont want to hear this but..Welcome to the daily life of a Hardwood Flooring Contractor.

My Credentials: NOFMA Certified Wood Flooring Inspector (CWFI), IAWFP-CWFI

Question: Is there a NOFMA tolerance for Over-wood in factory finished flooring?

Answer: There is no blanket standard for over-wood in non-NOFMA factory finished flooring that I am aware of. The tolerance will be as stated by the manufacturer of the product. If the information is not present in published cut-sheets (which it probably is not) contact the manufacturers technical services department and request it from them. In all likelihood the will give it to you willingly. Once in hand, you will have a means for identifying potential issue. If for some reason they won’t provide the value, ask the person you purchased the material from to chase it down. For the record, even if NOFMA did have a default “standard” for over-wood in this instance, there is no means of enforcement on non-NOFMA manufacturers or products. It would merely be viewed as a suggested value.

Now I head to my Soapbox for just a minute..

NOFMA was established for the purpose of definition and maintenance of specific and stringent quality standards for “NOFMA Certified” wood flooring products manufactured by its Members. NOFMA Certified Wood Flooring Inspectors (CWFI’s) were added later in the process to ensure that if a defective product managed to slip past internal the internal quality control of the mill and installed, it could be evaluated properly in the field and the issues addressed appropriately. Per an agreement with NOFMA and its Members, the NOFMA-CWFI’s decisions were final. There was no appeal of the inspector’s findings.

As a NOFMA-CWFI (one of the original 16 or so educated and certified by Mickey Moore prior to NOFMA acquisition by NWFA) I can assure you that manufacturing issues did in fact occur on occasion and that when identified in the field by NOFMA-CWFI’s, were addressed accordingly. What programs the NWFA (absent Mickey Moore) has put forth in the name of NOFMA since the acquisition, I cannot speak.

All that can be asked of the independent inspector is that he/she accurately collects data relative to the issues, scientifically evaluates the data, and reports the findings in an accurate and unbiased manner. The floor tells the story. Understanding it requires a proficiency in the language it speaks.

With regard to the post made that states “you all ready know the inspector has conflict of interest”. Can I inquire as to how you determined the conflict exists? Did the inspector or the manufacturer indicate in advance that they were going to bias the data in favor of the commissioning party that paid for the review? Do you have prior history with said inspector whereby he/she had demonstrated bias and/or incompetence (which is much different than bias)?

Is accuracy important to you in this instance? Are you looking for the correct answer, or one in agreement with your position? Possibly they are one in the same, maybe they are not.

When a professional inspects a floor, the evaluation is done without bias regardless of who is paying the bill. True professionals have integrity. It is part of what makes them who they are. There are “good” and “bad” in all professions and all of us have been drawn into a “guilt by association” scenario at some point in our lives.

My user name and real name; Mike Harde, are the same. I am a NOFMA-CWFI, IAWFP-CWFI and also President of the not for profit International Association of Wood Flooring Professionals (IAWFP). I take ownership for my comments and actions and seldom if ever post on online boards. There is a lacking in confidence of the flooring industries claims processes. Some are well founded, some are not. It is important for all of us to be able to differentiate between the two. Education is the key.

Please don’t hesitate to respond or contact me directly if you have comments, questions, or thoughts mharde@iawfp.org

If you are interested in requesting one of the original CWFI’s to perform the inspection, they can be found at http://www.iawfp.org

Latest NOFMA "Configuration and Machining Tolerances" booklet says their standards are as follows:

Unfinished
#1 & Better grades- .020" max.
#2 Common - .030" max.

Prefinished
Prime - .012" max.
Standard - .016" max
Tavern - .020" max.

However keep this in mind as well, the booklet clearly states these measurement tolerances are to be measured "at the time of manufacture" meaning that in the field they aren't necessarily saying these should be the standards b/c obviously wood takes on moisture and changes shape. Under the over-wood section for the inspector complaint guidelines it should also be noted the booklet says "NOFMA mill inspectors use a caliper to measure the position of the tongue and groove for determining 'over-wood/under-wood'. There is no compliance standard for this."

If not milled by a NOFMA manufactuer they don't have to do anything. And the manufacturer can set it's own standards. Then a certain percqantage can be allowable, start putting blue tape on the ones that are beyound the tolerence.

You sure thats a business card? I heard it was a credit card. No matter, many are different sizes anyways. What a loophole that is huh?

I plopped a plank down yesterday in the glue and low and behold the end joint was off by a good 3/16, arrrgh

Nice convincing post Mike and Sam.

Mike,
Thanks for you input. I appreciate your honesty and professionalism. I have no doubt that you are a sincere individual who takes pride in their trade. I can only speak from someone outside looking in. An article published by “Hardwood Floors Arp\May 09” (by Don Conner a NWFA Certified Professional (NWFACP) ) titled “Under the Microscope- What to expect-and not expect-from an inspection” is an interesting article. He states that certification is no guarantee of a good inspection. I’m sure that is because as in all professions there are good inspectors, bad inspectors and great ones. A couple items that were mentioned that I found interesting is that once the report is completed, only the party that initialed it gets a copy. Why is that? The other is when there is a conflict between the NWFA guidelines and the manufacturer, that the manufacturers’ directions take precedence over any general industry guidelines.

After reading your post I must admit, it was improper for me to agree that inspectors have a conflict of interest. I have no prior experience with inspectors….. But you gotta admit that if you have a problem with someone that makes a product, and that someone pays to be a member of an organization who certifies people to resolve that problem, an appearance of impropriety could be made. Then when that certified person makes a report to that someone, or for lack of a better term, judgment, there is in your words “no appeal of the inspector’s findings.” I’m sorry but that does not sound right.

Look Mike. I have nothing personally against you. In fact I liked and enjoyed your post. I thank you for your contribution to the discussion, however it appears that the end user “the consumer” is in a no win situation. When a smuck like me goes into a showroom and says “I’d like to purchase a hardwood floor”, you have to expect your going to get the job done right. NOW…..reading all these post, it appears there is a lot of different opinion’s of what right is.
Manufacturer makes a product. Is that manufacturer a member of the NWFA.
If yes, may or may not abide by the NWFA guidelines for standards.
If not your SC_ _ WED.
IF they are, and they do, then milling tolerances guidelines are applied at the point of manufacturing, subject to change upon conditions beyond their control.
Now here comes the installer who now becomes the final inspector, and who is not paid enough to measure every board and one, two, or 30 get buy, no problem, break out your business card and seee…..it’s OK, no problem. And remember if all else fail, 5% of the product can be defective. You install it, you own it.

Now let me fall off MY soapbox and say this.
If my subfloor is fine, if there are no moisture problems, and if 95% of all my square ended butt joints are smooth, and the remaining are not (up to 0.035), how do I do to get a fair shake? What resources do I have at my disposal, to say that is not acceptable?

A hand goes up in the back to the room….I know…I know,…. lets get an independent inspector.

Sorry for the rant everyone, and I do understand and appreciate the need for a good and impartial independent inspector.

Sam,
Can you provide any additional information on the handbook you mentioned? Date, section, paragraph? All I had was the article I linked to in a prior post.

I have some questions for all you installers. On prefinished flooring, how do you deal with overwood? What have you found to be acceptable to you and customers? Is it a continuous problem for you? Is it just the nature of the beast when it comes to prefinished flooring, beveled edging aside? Thanks

You mean dealing with square edge prefinished? I carry a big mallet and a credit card.

Gumbyc, the inspection industry for hardwood floors has been hijacked for years by national brokerage inspection firms. And not getting much better with the new kids on the block who have never installed any hardwood, some claim to have been installers when truthfully they were only grunt helpers and could not even make it to journeyman.

First question you should ask is what background in hardwood do they have, retail, helper, journeyman...carpet cleaner.iicrc inspector.....housewife gone rouge.....mill operator/manager....ask for references and check them