don't get ugly, i'm new here and i need some advise.
read this all the way through then ask questions or make remarks.

just need some advise.

I have been installing floor covering for 27 years in South east Alabama.

First off we have no codes or strict prep that are used in this area.

We installed some new Shaw 5" hardwood in a new house about three weeks ago. we set the wood in the house one afternoon around 5pm. started the next morning to install the hardwood,glue down.

in this area we glue all hardwood on concrete unless laminate.

all went great, had 2 areas that wanted to not stick good and we placed weight on the area. all was well.
in about a week the contractor called and said there were two areas that the wood had been snagged and they needed to be repaired. we went in removed these two boards and glued new ones in. about a day or two later the contractor called and had a hollow spot. we removed three boards and reglued and put new wood in.

a week went by and contractor called with three new hollow spots, went out to check this out. told the contractor that we needed to get the sales rep out to check things out.

now there are 12 areas in a room that is 16x21 that are loose/hollow. when you step on these areas the floor goes down, like the wood has raised off the floor.

called the glue people and they said they would come check the glue but it sounds like the concrete or hardwood has moisture in it.
the glue is still on the concrete and on the back of the hardwood if you remove a board.
no rep has been out yet ,but they are coming.

any ideas or things I should check?

Floor was not prepped to the strict flatness specifications placed on the substrate, by the wood and the glue manufacturer. Cutting corners will cost you time and your profit, if not eat into your bank account.

Acclimation to interior living conditions, not open air job site, let me sit my wrist watch on this stack of wood!!! Acclimation... The floor may infact be buckling. How did you varify the wood was at moisture content equilibrium, where it is no longer gaining or losing moisture compared to the humidity.

Hate to say it, but my finger is pointing at the professional, whos job it is, to know acceptable jobsite conditions, moisture content in relation to the ambient conditions, and the strict specs for floor prep. 3/16" in 10' is the usual rule, with some manufacturers like Owens Plank, that have a spec of 1/8 in 10.

I wewnt back and read on the box of Shaw wood, the paper inside the box and the glue. No where did I find a flatness specification. Everything
talked about removing oil, old glue, paint, ETC.
I have been installing hardwood for 25 + years and this is the first time that I have had this problem.

In south ALABAMA ,acclimation does not help that much.
Monday it rains all day with temp around 88,
Tuesday looks like rain, cloudy, temp 94.
Wed. clear and Hot temp 96 no wind.
Thurs. rain and high 86 with wind.
Friday, heavy rain and high 92 then droping a few hours later to 85 by noon and that afternoon talk about humidity in the air.

So in this area we do what we can.

What would make the glue split down the center like it did.

I did a job first of this week (family room)where the concrete floor had a 2inch rise across the middle and the wood is still where we left it, checked it one hour ago.

The glue that we use works good and holds.
Did not find one single hollow spot.

so can moisture in the floor or wood cause the glue to split?

and as for the holes/dips in the concrete some were 3/16" on 18' or less. the wood just turned loose.

You will find the flatness of the floor tolerance in these instructions for shaw hardwoods on page 3.

http://www.shawfloors.com/downloads/installation/Shaw%20Solid%20Hardwood%20Install%20Instructions%20011007.pdf

keith

The description of the failure is that of Flatness. Low spots with the wood bridging the low areas.

I agree with all those who posted a response.

This is how glue gets on both the wood and the subfloor, yet there is a hollow spot...

The glue is wet, the board is place and walked into the glue bed. As soon as weight is off the board the board pulls loose out of the gluebed. Now you have glue on the substrate and the back of the board. If you look at the glue, you can see the pull and release before the glue cured.

the wood that was first replaced has no strech marks or look to the glue.
We installed 3/8 engineered.

I went by the job site yesterday and a few more spots have pulled loose, this is after, right at 4 weeks.

I beleive that there is moisture in the wood or floor.

You tell me that it is my failute because I layed it all wrong.

why would this be the only time i have had this problem?

We also talked with the guy that we bought the glue from and he told us that shaw and a few other companies was having problems with there wood being used so fast in this area and Georgia that they can not keep up and alot of the wood is coming in wet, not dried properly.

The glue people have our glue and they are going to test it, plus we gave them some of the first boards (pieces)that we removed, not all.

Moisture in the wood? The planks would shrink

Moisture in the Sub-Floor? Maybe.
- Did you test the sub-floor prior to installation? This is the installer responsibility to test the sub-floor.

Planks have pulled loose? Would you please give a better description.. Where were these planks located? At the wall? Center of room?

Do you see the plank Ends Peaking?

Is the wood flat, and simply de-bonding?

Size of trowel?

Do you see distinct trowel ridges on the floor and back of the wood planks?

You used "What adhesive"?
wet set or??

You believe??? You should know!!! It is your job as the professional to know. If there is moisture and you laid it, you accepted the substrates condition and OK'ed it as being ready, now after the fact, your saying it must not have been ready, yet the flooring is laid????

You tell me who to point the finger at???? It is still aiming your way.

had a sales rep from a different company in today and i ask him to go look at the job site.
he said the glue had a different feel to it than what he thinks it should be, scally-lumpy and to wet feeling.
he said the glue transfer looked good. it looks to him that the wood might have swelled and butted the baseboards and pushed up in defferent spots.

Ray,
yes the plank ends are peaking.
and they are loose in many different places.
for the most the boards are flat and sounds hollow it different places.
one spot moves up and down alot more than any of the others.
as for trowel size, i used one that was a bit larger than called for.
when i say larger it was maybe a 1/16 deeper. just can't recall size.
seems like 3/16 x 3/16 x 1/4 apart, but not sure.
and yes you can see the distinct trowel ridges on the floor and back of the wood planks. the glue has more of a flat look than a streched apart look.

"had a sales rep from a different company in today and i ask him to go look at the job site.
he said the glue had a different feel to it than what he thinks it should be, scally-lumpy and to wet feeling.
he said the glue transfer looked good. it looks to him that the wood might have swelled and butted the baseboards and pushed up in defferent spots.

Ray,
yes the plank ends are peaking.
and they are loose in many different places.
for the most the boards are flat and sounds hollow it different places.
one spot moves up and down alot more than any of the others.
as for trowel size, i used one that was a bit larger than called for.
when i say larger it was maybe a 1/16 deeper. just can't recall size.
seems like 3/16 x 3/16 x 1/4 apart, but not sure.
and yes you can see the distinct trowel ridges on the floor and back of the wood planks. the glue has more of a flat look than a streched apart look
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"he said the glue transfer looked good. it looks to him that the wood might have swelled and butted the baseboards and pushed up in defferent spots"...............
This statement indicates excessive Concrete Vapor Emissions.
I think you did not leave expansion gapping either.
Even though Engineered wood does not always require acclimation (depending on manufacturer), engineered wood will shrink and swell. The moisture combined with lack of expansion gapping results in ends peaking and debonding.
I guess you did not perform moisture tests...
With wood, moisture testing is a MUST......... Wood sub-floors as well as concrete sub-floors should be tested for moisture content.
I'm afraid you got yourself in a pickle on this job...
Sorry.

Ray Darrah

Sales rep... A salesman!!!! They are clueless!!


Peaked ends on engineered, tells me there is moisture in the substrate, which you are responsible for checking prior to installation. If you used an acrylic waterbased adhesive, the high moisture from the substrate can play havoc on it and the wood flooring.

If you see distinct trowel ridges, you were bridging a low spot, or your glue was setting up on you and needed to be scraped up and reapplied(moisture cure on a wet slab). A board place into a proper gluebed, will not show the ridges. It will be smashed flat with 100% coverage on the back of the board.

Floorguy is Right...

wow ,i live in florida and as with you ,we get alot of rain , ALWAYS do a moisture test , and let it set on job for a least 2 days , in the south it is a must!!, we do alot of glue down also , but glue is not a moisture treatment, all the signs are there , cupping is a true sign, or peaking howevery you want to call it , but also you need to look at the floor itself, very few floors in the south are level any more ,and with glue down it is a must , dont blame the glue or product , sorry bro , this seems to me an installer cut some corners , it is hard to except but sounds like you droped the ball

Guess what all you smart people, Shaw replaced the hardwood floor , paid labor to remove and reinstall. The hardwood had problems.

So all of you were wrong and I tried to get you to think this through!