Recently moved into a new build (May06), and we are starting to see multiple issues with the flooring.. Flooring was installed over a crawlspace, that has not had any issues involving water etc.
75% of first level is hardwood.. We started to see issues involving Buckling in 2 seperate rooms, where the floor has raised approx 1/2".
Recently we started to notice that the boards in the hallway, and asitting area are starting to cup along the seams..
The flooring was installed by the builder to my knowledge. His flooring supplier came by the house a few weeks ago, and said that it appeared that the flooring was installed improperly. He checked under the hosue, and noted that there were no signs of moisture related issues in the crawl space. But he did say it appeared that the floor was butted up against the moulding. Next visit they shaved several of the moulding that ran parallel to the flooring in the rooms where the buckling was noticed. Then he proceeded to tell us that thay might have to sand the cupping areas down..
Needless to say we both were starting to get agitated with the process..
Last visit he started to blame the temperature and moisture in the house. He wants to check the moisture in the house and want to wait until spring to see how the floor does during the winter..
We leave in Central North Carolina, and typically keep the house around 74.. Have no other signs of a possible moisture issue..

Will checking the moisture now do any good?? To my slighty uneducated opinion only after reading a lot of the threads here, it sounds like the installation wasnt done properly. (Acclaimation Issues)

What do you all think.. Waiting until spring to me sounds like he is putting us off again, and that it may resolve itself but wont it come back again..

Forgot to say the flooring guy, recently closed down their store( after 20+ years) so he can retire.. The houses in our subdivision are his last that his company is supplying..

Thank you in advance for any and all thoughts of our problem..

what type of floor you got ? (solid or engineered) nailed down or glued down ? was air conditioning on before or after install ? DID THEY INSULATE UNDER SUBFLOOR ? (between joists)

Before I hang anyone here, I suggest you get an independent inspection done, by a member of the NWFA or NOFMA, as a Certified Inspector, to get an unbiased consultation and written report ready for litigation.

http://www.nwfa.org


http://www.nofma.org

I agree. Not enough info supplied. We need real data, like MC and RH measurements, wood type, etc. to help determine cause of failure. In general however, cupping or buckling is a sign of moisture problems, which can be installation related or not. When a floor goes bad, there is always lots of finger pointing. Only an indeperndant, unbiased and certified hardwood flooring inspector, as Perry recommended, can ascertain the problems and causes.

Sorry for not supplying enough info, was the middle of the morning..
Flooring is Solid oak, but not sure how to check if it is nailed or glued etc. HVAC was on uring an after install to my knowledge
There is not insulation between joists, an no moisture present during several inspections.. Mostly after heavy rainfall..
What independent inspections normally run?? Should we do this now, or after waiting the months they stated..
Bot sure how to obtian the moisture and humidity you are discussing.. I take it you are asking of the floor prior to install correctr.. My guess is that they never did it..
Thank you for you help

What if the only NWFA inspector in his area happens to also be a flooring distributor, which may be where his floor was purchased ? Would you consider that inspector to be un-biased ? O.K., back to the cupping issue. You said the floor was over a crawl space, Also said you got insulation under sub-floor. Was there Ty-vek or plastic (visqueen) stapled to the bottom of your floor joists to prevent moisture from getting to the insulation and holding it there like a sponge or did they just insulate it ? (I've seen floors cup from insulation and no moisture barrier) Also, are your floors site finished or pre-finished ? If they were site finished did they let floor acclimate 3 weeks before finishing ? I'm assuming your floors are 3/4" solid oak that would of had to been nailed down.(can't glue 3/4" unless boards are all shorts or 1' in length) ALSO YOUR CRAWL SPACE NEEDS VENTILATION. their's a formula where you multiply the sq. ft. of house by a certain # and that will give you the amount and size of the vents needed.

That would be a direct conflict of interest, and the inspector should decline the inspection. Will he decline, or will he take their money?







Preventing moisture from getting there, so what is the sponge holding?

I'm confused!






I've seen floors cup from no insulation and no moisture barrier.
If wood is able to dry out, then wouldn't it be said that fiberglass insulation will dry out, too. The question is and should always be, why is it wet in the first place. Where is the moisture coming from. Must be humidity. What is humidity?










Where is this written in stone. Sure the heat from sanding will pull some moisture out of the wood, but 3 weeks. What if it is an Ipe, BC, or Santos, where if you wait too long, the oils resurface and cause finish concerns?






I personally feel vented crawl spaces are fine, IF you don't have a HVAC system you use above. I feel NOFMA's stance on the vented crawl space is from before HVAC systems became affordable, and now standard!


I feel a closed and dehumidified crawl space or basement is much better.

You have to think about outside air and ambient conditions, then you have conditioned air inside the living space. Now, take that outside air and let it be vented in a much cooler(and damper) crawl space and cool it. What happens to the outside air when it is cooled?

Take a temperature of say 80º (fairly mild here), with a 70% humidity (pretty normal here) Now lets let that air into a crawl space that is lets say, just 10º cooler, @ 70º, what is the humidity inside the crawl space with that air vented in there????

Stated earlier that the crawl space area is not insulated between joists..
Fundation has many air vents currently open, will be closing soon, once temp stays down..
Inspector coming in on Thursday to take a look at it, there are none in the immeidate area.
Will update after he visits..
Thanx for the help

The humidity in the crawl space is.... 100%

So that is my theory on vented crawl spaces, and I'm sticking to it!!!

I have AADD so if I missed this forgive me. Is the soil in the crawl space completely covered and overlapped with a thick poly?

No its not you its me.. yes completely covered with a heavy moisture barrier..

Vented crawlspace and no insulation? That, my friend, is bad medicine.

It could simply be a matter of the subfloor having been too wet at the time of install. However, I am tending toward Perry's analysis. Considering the time of year, it seems obvious.

The whole vented crawlspace paradigm has been a flawed one from the get go. The vents only let stuff in. They have practically no ability whatsover to evacuate moisture from the crawlspace area. Water vapor will reliably follow the path of least resistance. This is how moist air gets in. You see, outside the environment is at relative equilibrium with the cold, wet air that is falling. (for a little while) This creates a thermal draw at the vent. The cold, damp air actually pours in. Sadly, that path of least resistance deal holds true for the getting out part. Now in it's new environment, that outside air behaves in a new way. While it is under your home, that air will rise up very slowly against the bottom of the floor and subsequently leave water behind in the framing members and subfloor.

It is a vicious cycle.

I would be glad to expand on this if necessary.

I have run across this in the Tampa bay area. Some homes are elevated
with no under side insulation. The home owner turns the air down to 72-
74 deg. with a low rel humidity in the house and 80 degrees under the
house with a relative hum. of 90% under the house. The cold dry floor
pulls the moisture up through the floor to the inside and it cups up.
Cure - Turn the air cond. up to 78 and the floor returnes back to normal.

Sorry for not replying sooner.. Took a much needed vacation..
Miss stated some of the facts above, and the inspection results I will post below.. Will update some more after discussing with builder later in week..

1. Temperature-69, humidity-42%, moisture readings on noninvasive Tramex meter on 5-30 wood scale were 15-18% (high); on a Delmhorst pin meter with ½” pins on 6-40 scale were 8% (good).
2. Tramex readings of the joist read 17-18% (high) and sub floor read 14-15% (high) in crawl space with plastic on ground & insulation between joists.
3. Flatness issues noted when checked with a laser more than 3/16” in 10’; actually found places ½” in 8’ out of flatness; found places where no edge space was seen at perimeter and wall.
4. Cupping of at least .037” or .940 mm depth noted with feeler gauges and level in middle of planks indicating a moisture imbalance from below has affected the wood.
5. Floor is noticeably cupped in all rooms in house.