Hi. I have been hanging out over a year now and you guys have been kind enough to offer your expertise time and time again. Sadly I did not find this site prior to my purchase of 3k of a Solid 7/16 Amendoim by br111. I made the purchase as a designer at Expo said it would be fine on my concrete subfloor.

Well 99% of installers won't install it. Cause like most of you don't want to do a direct gluedown of a solid onto concrete. I found one that was familiar and willing and we set a date and signed a contract. The day of install the tramex maxed out at 6.

The installer said I should not install it as it will fail.

Expo Design/Home Depot won't give me a refund for the unused wood.
I am thus suing them for misrepresentation as they told me this would be fine on my concrete.

I asked my contractor to write me a short note to take to court as to why the flooring would not work and he ignores me.

Would any lic contractors be willing to write one paragraph and email it to me regarding why this flooring install is super risky? I know why but that is considered hearsay in court and as I don't have a lic am not considered an expert.
Thanks

BR-111 says in their installation instructions that their 5/16" and 7/16" solid floors can be glued to concrete.
http://www.br111.com/pdf/5-16_7-16_Install.pdf

They strongly advise the use of a "vapor barrier" such as Franklin Titebond 531, Bostick's MVP and others. They also stipulate the use of a moisture cured urethane adhesive. Br-111 says the warranties come from the adhesive and sealer manufacturers. BR-111 does not guarentee the flooring against cupping, buckling or moisture related problems but puts that on the adhesive and sealer manufacturers, as well as the installers. Here's where it gets interesting. It the real world, customer buys wood from dealer, who says yes, you can glue it to concrete. Manufacturer says you can too. Use such and such and do so and so. Customer decides job is too much and wants to hire someone. Hires a "contractor". Contractor follows the manufacturer's recommendations and lays the floor. 3 months later, customer calls contractor with a complaint about the floor: it's cupping! Contractor says call the sealer and adhesive companies and they say,"Not our fault, our product performs flawlessly, your installer did something wrong. Sue him". So customer goes back to contractor and files suit in small claims. Contractor tries to defend himself but the courts usually side with the consumer and award the customer full costs as much as the court can. Now contractor followed the directions but none of the manufacturers stood behind their products, knowing full well they always have the muscle (legal and monetary) to defend themselves and the average joe isn't going after Goliath. In the end, the contractor is screwed. After all, he is the professional and should have known better.

Well, sorry to sound so pessemistic but this plays out in the real world every day. The only way a licensed contractor will install this floor is if you give him a waiver of liabilty and agree not to hold him responsible if the floor fails and to go after the manufacturers instead of him, the installer.

Have you looked at doing a floating subfloor?

Kimberly, what you need is an independent flooring inspector. There fees can be collected from the party your taking legal action against.

http://fits4.org/ilist/ilist.html Click on "need an inspector"


Gary, you put that so well! I won't touch a solid over concrete, no matter who says what.

It may be a long shot but I would contact br111 directly tell them your story and possibly they could work out an exchange for an eng floor.

Guys, I allready know and agree with everything you said. After all this has been an 18 month long saga and I am a studiuos sort. I know so much about wood my head is going to explode! No way would I put this product in!

The court date is set!!!!

But that is not going to help me win the court case if no contractor has the courage to put in writting what you all believe on a slip of paper and sign their name so I can show it to a judge.

I respect completely why the job was refused. But I choose to be nice and not supeona this guy and I don't think I am asking too much for him to write why he could not or will not do it.

And it does not help now that the NWFA now supports putting thin solids on to concrete.

I have watched all the websites change over the past 18 months to allow this.

If I can't get a contractors letter from any one what about a respected organization that puts out installation guidelines so I could show that to the judge?
Any text recommendations that a good library would have?

I really do appreciate the responses but none of them answered the question so perhaps I was not clear.

DO ANY OF YOU AS LICENSED CONTRACTORS HAVE THE COURAGE TO WRITE A NOTE INCLUDING YOUR NAME AND LICENSE NUMBER SAYING THE TRUTH ABOUT HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT PUTTING SOLIDS ON TO CONCRETE?

As it is your opinion you are completely protected. It is not slander in anyway.

Those notes in themselves will win me the case. I don't need to pay a flooring inspector 1000s. I am not going to float a floor that can't be floated. And I know backwards and forwards BR111 installation guidelines as well as Home Depot/Expo and NWFA.

I am on your side. I believe the contractors. I want the practice stopped and I want my money back but it is hard to do alone when no contractor will back me up.

This whole situation hurts the industry and creates distrust all around.

Until someone stands up to the big box stores consumers such as myself and tradepeople such as you will continued to be screwed.

My email is

Slykat12@dslextreme.com

I want to kick Home Depots butt.

Send me your opinion. I don't need to hear how it can be done. I allready know that and it won't help me.

I need to hear from those that believe a direct gluedown will fail.

Thanks- In Southern Cali
Kimberly

Kimberly,

I do see your dilema. I'm not an attorney but it seems to me you will have a hard time proving your case because the manufacturer states their product can be successfully installed this way. And you did find a contractor willing to install it. The problem arose when the moisture readings of the slab were too high and the contractor backed out of the deal due to that. Keep in mind that gluing exotic solid wood floors to concrete is relatively new and techniques and recommendations are changing as more is learned about these newer products.
It isn't about courage (are you trying to manipulate us?). It is about the fact that no one, except the guy who was going to perform the work, actually did an on-site inspection. How can anyone say that your particular job is not acceptable if they hadn't seen it or measured the moisture content? I am guessing you did everything you could to get Expo to accept a return, including paying a re-stocking fee, which is common. I find it amazing that they will not accept the return +restocking fee. Just shows you what kind of organization they are. It seems to me that returns and such should have been spelled out in the purchase agreement. Have you tried going further up the ladder? Contact company president, etc.? I'm just trying to help find solutions. If you can get the guy who originally agreed to install your floor to testify on your behalf (you will have to make it worth his time ei: pay him), that will be your best bet to win your case IMO.

Kim,

Let me start by saying I feel for you. In fact I have been in a similar situation. You feel wronged and you want to get even. With that said, You probably won't like what I am about to say, but here goes anyway.

At this point 18months have gone by. You have obviously been consumed with this for a long time. At what point will you call it a loss, sell your material to get back some of the initial investment and get on with your life? The cost was considerable up front but the cost of the past 18 months of your life has been a lot more.

Good Luck to you Kim and I hope you find happiness

I'll add my thoughts. I don't know why so many people are scared to death glueing solids. Sure I won't glue a solid 3/4" but I've done a few BR111 jobs along with some solid 5/8" of another product. Being so used to gluedown jobs in the first place, I never gave it much thought but I used 30 sf per gallon with a 1/4" notched trowel on the Bostiks.

Ken, It only takes one failed floor to eat all the profits of the last ten successful ones. Everyone knows solids have more potential for cupping due to moisture than engineered floors. We also know that even if we perform a moisture test, the test is only valid at the time it was taken. We also know healthy concrete slabs continue to absorb and emit moisture. So if an installer makes a moisture test, finds the slab to be acceptable at that time, installs the floor and 6 months later it cups, who's to blame? The flooring installer will be held liable in the end. I will say that in the last few years, with Bostick's, Taylor and Franklin leading the way, concrete moisture sealers are making this less of a concern than in the past. If they would provide an ironclad guarentee to protect the installer/user, then I would glue thin solids down, providing the manufacturer approves of it.

Kimberley...I don't know what state you reside in, but I do know that here in California, a letter, such as you describe, would be inadmissible in court as evidence, unless the person who wrote was present to answer questions.

SK, here's her signature. She's in la-la land.

a La Land? You're just jealous! I do appreciate all your responses. You all present great ideas all of which I allready did.

When the saga began NO ONE was putting solids of any type on to concrete Now more contractors are familiar with it and more comfortable.

However, the fact is Home Expo did do me wrong in the sense that they represented the product to me as having certain qualities it does not. This product can go on some concrete but not all and not mine. I was told by their subcontracter it could go on mine prior to me buying it as well as by there paid designer.
I kinda thinks that makes a difference. Maybe it doesn't.

Well we will see what the judge says. I am sure I will at least get the money for the wood back as it is in the boxes.
Kissses Lalala

Well, if you're in Santa Barbara, Marina Del Rey, Hermosa Beach, Malibu, or any of the nicer beach communities, I'd have to say your right. But if you're in N. Hollywood, LA, Compton or San Bernadino, you couldn't get me to live there if you paid me. I do hope things go well for you in court.