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 Post subject: Moisture Test Result communication; Questions; Please reply
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 11:57 am 
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I have following two questions.
1. Is the moisture test (by any particular method) is mandatory before installing engineered wood?
2. Is it mandatory to discuss the result with home owner?

Background: I have already opened the thread with subject as "Scandian Bonita Gold Tiger wood; small cracks on many planks". Our installer did not take moisture test before installing the wood and did not discuss the result with us. We asked about moisture measurement for 2-3 times before installation and his answer was subfloor is white and not gray that means moisture does not present.

Yesterday we met the installer with two of independant inspector's reading which shows very high moisture content such as 17% - 30% in "Tramex moisture encounter plus" meter. He says that he measured moisture but it was within limit hence did not discuss with us and did not record it. He says that it is not mandatory to discuss the result with home owner.

I appreciate your response/feedback one more time.

Thanks a lot.


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 Post subject: Re: Moisture Test Result communication; Questions; Please reply
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 1:42 pm 
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Location: Tucson AZ
Are we talking a wood substrate or concrete? Or moisture test of the hardwood itself?

The only time it is mandatory is if the manufacturer requests it. Concrete testing is all over the charts from striking a match ( I believe mannington states that) and like Armstrong suggests a CME meter to check for high elevations first then if high readings you perform CaCl or relative humidity tests. Adhesive manufacturers are generally the same although many insist on a CaCl test or Rh test.

But wood substrates are different in that the subfloor or underlayment needs to be within certain percentage points of the hardwood. This is has always been the case. Many manufacturers simply refer you to NWFA guidelines.

A moisture encounter measurement (pinless) is only a qualitative measurement and in no circumstances should it be taken as a percentage of the moisture content of the wood itself. Only a pin meter can do that. Just as the CME meter takes a measurement of the concrete, it is not quantitative.

Hope that helps

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Stephen Perrera
Top Floor Installation Co.
Tucson, Arizona
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Floor Repairs and Installation in Tucson, Az
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com


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 Post subject: Re: Moisture Test Result communication; Questions; Please reply
PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 6:58 pm 
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Moisture readings only indicate the percentage at the time of the reading. Even if you were within range at time of reading, ( IF it was tested ), the reading may vary in time due to an array of different conditions. IMO it is only professional to bring up and discuss preventative moisture treatments, regardless of readings at time of installation.
On a side note...The statement that the substrate is white and not gray so there's no moisture present ,is rediculous. For 1 the guys not Houdini, for 2 , every substrate has a moisture content.

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Howard Chorpash
Frazier Mountain Hardwood
http://www.lasvegaswoodflooring.com


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 Post subject: Re: Moisture Test Result communication; Questions; Please reply
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:57 pm 
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1: "Mandatory"? Probably not from a legal standpoint, but most definitely for a professional to do these things as part of ensuring a proper installation.
2: "Discuss with the homeowner"? The findings should be noted within the quote provided to the home-owner. This is not "secret" information and is important that the site parameters are inspected, reported, and acknowledged as part of any agreement between parties.

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 Post subject: Re: Moisture Test Result communication; Questions; Please reply
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:06 pm 
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Dennis,Floorologist and floormeintucson, thanks for taking time out from your busy schedule and responding to my queries.

Floormeintucson, I was cheking about moisture content measurement of subfloor and in our case it is concrete after removal of carpet. We installed scandian bonita series and the site http://www.scandianwoodfloors.com/installation.htm mentions that “Always use a moisture barrier when installing over concrete”. I wish I could have read all this before installation :(

Floorlogist, Moisture content was not measured before installation and after asking 1-2 times before installation we got same answer as subfloor looks white. He did not mention that test has been taken and readings are within range at that time. Last Saturday when we met with two independent inspector's reports he is saying that he does not have any readings on paper but it was taken. We started seeing the cracks with 4-6 weeks after installtion of hard wood.

Dennis : “Inspected, reported, and acknowledged as part of any agreement between parties” , this did not happen.

Thanks all again. I am planning to write all the details to store chain manager, hopefully he understands the whole situation.


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 Post subject: Re: Moisture Test Result communication; Questions; Please reply
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 10:36 pm 
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SAP wrote:

We installed scandian bonita series and the site http://www.scandianwoodfloors.com/installation.htm mentions that “Always use a moisture barrier when installing over concrete”. I wish I could have read all this before installation :(


I understand where your coming from about wishing you read about the moisture barrier.
IMO bottom line: You hired professionals. While it's said that consumers should educate themselves as much as possible, I agree to a large extent. But the flip side...When a consumer hires a "professional" you should have peace of mind that your in good hands. Many people just plain dont have time to learn what the pro they hired is suppose to know. Knowing or not, moisture reading / test or not, it's on their head installing the floor without a moisture barrier, as per this manufacturers requirement.

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Howard Chorpash
Frazier Mountain Hardwood
http://www.lasvegaswoodflooring.com


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 Post subject: Re: Moisture Test Result communication; Questions; Please reply
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:10 pm 
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I agree with Howard and Dennis too.

When gluing I always do Cacl tests or run Wagner Rapid Rh tests. I take pictures of the test sites, do ph tests, pictures of those as well and give all the info to the consumer and keep documentation myself to protect the both of us.

BTW if I saw a white surface on concrete that would make me wary as that could mean effloresence that typically goes hand in hand with high mositure emissions.

And the inspectors do not have anything documentated either? What a bloody mess. Shame on them too. :x

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Stephen Perrera
Top Floor Installation Co.
Tucson, Arizona
IFCII Certified Inspector
Floor Repairs and Installation in Tucson, Az
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com


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