Hello All,

I'm new to this forum and just got my maple wood sanded and stained. I have some questions for the experts here if you can help me! I noticed that there were quite a few sanding marks, which the contractor did remove but there are still some remaining. Please see the pics in the link below.

Also, there is some sort of thread/long hair stuck in the polyurethane. The wood is maple and it was sanded down, then duraseal or something like that was used to stain and then 3 coats of poly was applied on it. My contractor told me that he is scared to re-sand this wood since it is alreay pretty thin and also said that it is a very hard wood to stain and get perfectly fine looking (since it is Maple). Either way, there will be always some sort of buff/sand marks on the wood according to him. He is trying his best but what do you guys think? Am I asking him too much? Is it even worth doing doing the re-sand/re-finsh etc. The contractor will be coming over the weekend to buff and apply another coat of poly so that he can remove the debris, hair etc. Also, I'm thinking to cover my carpet with some sheets to prevent the dust/debris/hair from floating before he gets in do his work.

It has already been 2 weeks since this project started and it was projected to be done in 3-4 days at max.

You can see the pic, the one next to the carpet, there are hair-line scratches. Do you guys think its worth fixing them or do they flow well with the wood texture?

I feel the contractor did a good job but due to some minor issues, I'm still not satisfied. How common are these problems that I'm facing?

Pics:

https://picasaweb.google.com/102107879739855628243/Wood

What do you think of the overall look/color?

Thanks!

Just a follow up:

Most of the sanding marks are next to the edges or the perimeter of the wood.. There is actually a huge circular sanding mark under the fridge area but I'm not worried about that since its completely hidden and will always be like that in future.

Thanks again guys!

The scratches are from him using the edger against the grain instead of with the grain. I always go around the perimeter with a hand sander when staining to try and get the marks out. You will always have some and stain brings the out far more then just finish. If you have to look for them to see them it is not a problem, if they are everywhere and are very obvious then it is. as for the hair, he should be able to pluck it out the light sand and just finish that one board.

he actually got the floor pretty dark for a typical oil penetrating stain.

did he water pop?..

Maple is soft and makes scratch marks easily..so I agree there will alwsy be some markings.

I have in the past sanded Maple and and literally handsanded the whole floor by hand using sheet rock prepping sanders with same grit I finished with machines to remove marks and make a consistent "pallet" if you would to get the most even coloring I can.


Considering he didn't dye the floor he got pretty good color in my opinion.

Thanks a lot Jeff/James. It looks like he did do a good job then!

Also, I'm not sure if he did the water pop technique and he didn't use a dye as well.

I had a closer look at the floor and did notice quite a few tiny bubbles and some area were rough as well. There's one section of the wood where a small piece is popping out and feels sharp (not sure if it is the dried up piece of poly or something else). Can these bubbles/imperfections be removed? How realistic should I be in resolving the bubbles/imperfections? I just want to make sure that I'm not being unrealistic here and be fair. The wood contractor will be in tomorrow to buff and apply another coat of poly.

Thanks!

If he buffs it well enough and the does a good job cleaning so there is no dust on the floor or can become airborne before he puts the finish on it should minimize the little bumps. Make sure you point out the sharp peice and hairs before he starts.

Thanks Jeff!

Is it also okay to buff and apply polyurethane to sections of the wood? In my case, only a few sections need work so I was wondering to ask the contractor to only work on those areas (i.e. buff and re-apply a coat of poly). I'm scared that if he puts the poly on the whole wood he might create other new problems.

depends on how big of an area. When I do that I mask off the area along board seams ends and edges and just work in between the lines. It's a new enough floor that if done right you will never know.

First, Maple is not soft, it is hard and not porous, and that is the reason for the sanding mark difficulties. The greater the wood density (hardness) the more difficult it is to achieve sanding success (no sanding marks). The standard for measuring wood hardness is the Janka method. You can easily find hardness charts on the web by simply typing in the search line janka charts. This is the standard all wood manufacturers and experienced hardwood floor people rely on. Just so you know, Maple and Hickory are the two hardest domestic woods used for hardwood floors in the U.S. There does exist a soft Maple, but it is never used for hardwood floors.

While it is true the harder the wood the more difficult it is to remove all sanding marks, that is why a variety of sanding grits are available, and also why different sanding tools and techniques are employed in the process. Those who water pop wood floors prior to staining to reduce the appearance of sanding marks (which can easily be eliminated with the combination of properly adjusted tools and application techniques) are like the twenty year employee who having never received a pay raise told their employer they should have a raise because they have twenty years experience. To which the owner of the business replied they did not have twenty years experience, but one year of experience twenty times.

This may sound harsh, but it is true. In reality, sanding marks are a no brainer for those who have taken the time to train properly in sanding equipment adjustment and use (edgers and belt sanders), stain or no stain.

As far as whether or not the floor can be re-sanded, if the flooring was milled to NWFA standards, the thickness from the top layer of wood to the tongue is 5/16" when it leaves the mill. The way to tell if there is enough wood left to sand again is to take a thin knife blade and insert it into a gap in the flooring until it gently touches the top of the tongue of the wood flooring and measure how deep the knife goes into the gap. If you find 3/16" there is one more sand left in the floor. If less, it cannot be sanded again. If you find more than 3/16", a qualified floor professional could easily get two more sands.

The grit left in the floor finish is the result of very careless final preparation before applying the final coat. No excuse for that! Sorry. Either the floor was carelessly vacuumed or the finish used contained the grit and was not strained properly before applying. In either case, haste, inexperience or slothfulness is the culprit.

As far as bubbles in the finish, sounds like the use of unconventional application techniques, or contaminants in the finish or on the floor.

From what I can see from your pictures the floor would be graded a 'D-' at best.

What is glaringly obvious is that the methods used to refinish your floor are antiquated. Modern sanding equipment, thoughtful, skilled sanding techniques and new 'green' finishes (for staining and finishing) coupled with the right application techniques more than enable a floor professional to eliminate 'all' the problems you are encountering with your floor.

Regarding trying to fix one or two boards in a stained floor....and get it to look uniform, the way a professional can make it look? Well, when it's done you be the judge. If your flooring professional is not capable of proper sanding, it is likely they are not capable of finishing or floor repair at the professional level either.

No one likes to be told they don't know what they are doing, but if it is the truth it is the place to start.

I know this may be too much straight talk for some but what you are experiencing is what goes a long way in making a bad name for our industry.

Good luck.

flooringinstalls1

Flooringinstalls1 obviously knows his business. Sanding marks particularly around the edges generally are caused by not pulling the edger down the length so it blends better with the length done by the big sander. Also, not saying its so, skipping grits can result in the scratch pattern not cutting properly. Additionally a properly tacked floor should result in no sanding dust making problems as you seem to be experiencing. Pictures seldom portray what the clothed eye can see so I would think it looks far better to the clothed eye i.e. unless you are a professional photographer. When taking inspections photos I am never as satisfied as what I see with the clothed eye. Maple typically does not stain well unless it is water popped. Hard Maple on the janka hardness scale is 1450 only Hickory/Pecan at 1820 is harder. Red Oak is 1290 and at last count reputed to be installed in 60% of the homes in the US. Waterpopping raises the grain and allows the stain to distribute more evenly. By the way get some feeler guages from say Harbor Freight Tools you will be able to insert the .009 easily to determine sanding depth. Charles Peterson's book Layout, Installation & Finishing details exactly how it should be done. Don't like reading you purchase a DVD showing the whole process. Book and DVD I purchase many years ago at Amazon.com. Or contact the NWFA at http://www.woodfloors.org and purchase Technical Bulletin C200 and look up what causes sanding marks many many choices. NWFA Sanding and Finishing Technical Bulletin B200. shows on page 13 the proper method of edging from the wall to the field. By the was this information is what most inspectors utilize in their reports as to the causes of improper methods of installation.

Thanks guys, since you are friendly professionals and perfectionists I can understand your expectations. I think I could live with some marks here and there but what's really annoying to me is the stuck dirt/grit, hair etc.. all that nasty stuff in the coats.

I got the floor checked by another wood professional today and he said some stuff which you are saying here as well.. He wasn't really happy to see the results as well and pretty much told me that my floor is partially screwed up now. He said the mid-sections were done okay but the edges were messed up. However, he said those issues won't be noticeable to anyone except professionals. For him to re-fix my floor, it would be more than $1K but I don't want to spend that much.

Therefore, I was wondering if there's any way to pull the hair and dirt out without buffing. I mean, is there a tool or something like that I could buy from home depot to pull the stuff out? Like something like a swiss knife etc. I'm really okay to have some blemishes/defects left after pulling those things out. If there's a small nick on the wood, I think I'm okay but I really want to get all that nasty stuff out.. Please advice since a professional is coming out to be too expensive to fix these issues now and I don't want to call the same wood guy who did the work.

Thanks!

he Janka test is a farce and self aggrandizing to even use it.

I have never believed the rating for Maple..you can dent it with your finger nail easily..

Although I know Maple or Hard Maple is considered a "hard wood" my experience has shown me differently.

Hard species sand beautifully and easily..Brazilian cherry, teak..brazilian walnut..

go to a maple floor and picture frames develop..scratch marks even after 3 cuts..finish sanders leave marks after the fact as well.

the most meticulous method i have employed to come out as near perfect as we can get was to actually hand prep the floor after sanding.
at a minimal hand prepping all edge work is a must.

hand sand a maple floor and see how fast the paper clogs.

oil penetrating stains are crap on Maple..Gel stain and more affective are dyes especially when considering a deep color...so I was a little shocked to see the depth of color he achieved without a water pop.

Although I wouldn't have left those marks on any of my jobs , I will not sit here and play superman and throw someone under a bus..

I think you've gotten some good input from the others, and it doesn't seem like this place has had a lot of experience w/ maple. Maple is harder than oak and it's a closed pore wood making it more challenging to sand & stain. Even though it's less hard than braz cherry, often it's just more challenging to work with.

It looks like the biggest issues are around the edges and the only way to truely fix this is to resand the floors. Or, you can live with it. Regarding bubbles, etc, that can prob. be fixed with a full screen and recoat (and avoid sanding) and most likely it's best to do the whole floor so it's uniform (unless it's only in 1 area).

Regarding your last question, on what do I think of the stain/color, and this is opinion, no I don't think it's good color choice. The stain has actually penetrated well, but I think it's a very poor color selection give the color of your cabinets. You need more of a contrast and your colors just don't go.

So, if you decide to resand the floors, make sure you have more of contrast and work w/ right color tones (I might even do natural...which in turn will fix some of the issues on the edges) or if you love the color of the floors, I would paint (or restain) the cabinets...ideally I would go white. That combo can work very well for you. I would also repaint, because I don't think that combo is a good one either, but I have a hunch you haven't gotten to that point yet.

Debbie Gartner, aka The Flooring Girl
http://TheFlooringGirl.com
Westchester County, NY

I don't see anywhere she is asking about the color choice. That is completely subjective. Some people like contrast some don't. I have done jobs where the people have dark cabinets dark walls and then they go with a dark floor and absolutely love it. She doesn't want to spend $1,000 to fix the floor now you have her redoing the cabinets because it isn't your style. It drives me nuts when these forums go so far off topic.

I really dont care about the cabinets etc.. my kitchen will be remodeled and I will be painting the walls. I just moved into this place and have tons of work to finish..

I noticed that my polyurethane is teared out a bit after I tried to scrub out some of the debris/dirt stuck in the poly. Now I think I'm screwed...

Can I fix this by myself? I saw that homedepot has poly cans that I can buy and apply with a brush.. will this resolve the issue? I have a satin finish and I was thinking to apply with a brush and sand it. Please advise, I think my floor is a mess and I think I will completely replace it in the future after remodeling my kitchen. I'm scared to replace it before the remodel because I'm thinking that the contractors will damage the floors.

Thanks!