Anybody with experience?

Are sealers like MVP going to be eliminated? Easy to work with? Costs?

Have not used it yet but still not sold on that moisture reduction system where there is simply a couple millimeters more of adhesive. I still like the seperate system like MVP4 where the first app is cured first.

However I do like the clip on trowels that come with every bucket (under lid). Some manufacturers of other systems want as much as fifteen bucks per trowel per bucket. Still gotta test the slabs per Mapei.


http://www.mapei.com/public/US/products ... TDS_EA.pdf

Bostiks has something similar, and they do request moisture testing as well. I saw Perry mention something about it at Jim McCLains place. Maybe he's used it more than a few times.

Well Ken as far as I am concerned the jury is still out on that stauf ha ha stauf...get it? Those stauf people came up with the 2 layer at once app and even though all these manufacturers who have followed suit claim tens or hundreds of thousands of wood over their product does not make me convinced it is better...yet. Course none of them are going to admit they are having issues either.

On both Bostik products they go with the same verbage as MVP4.."Designed to reduce moisture vapor transmission",(Bostik Ultraset). "Designed to reduce moderate amounts of moisture vapor transmission,(Bostik Vapor Lock).

Hate to be negative, but best to be devils advocate and cautious on something like this. Seems like all you ever hear is manufacturers passing the buck.

One point that I wonder about this "2 in 1". When setting a plank in the adhesive/barrier, what's to stop the penetration of the back of the plank, past the teeth, into the barrier? Therefore in my mind compromising the barrier. OR...Same results if your in a situation when your "sliding" a plank into place? i.e. undercut areas, etc.

I think it's going to take some time to tell if this system ultimately works. then who knows whether to believe it. The easy way isn't alway the best, for now I believe in a cured barrier. Hopefully it will be available. Maybe one of the Bostik or Mapei guys will chime in

Not to mention squish through on the joints. When I step up a notch due to lack of coverage (which is common if your using the recommended trowel on these adhesive) I get some squish through. I guess you can't really work on top of the floor with lakes of adhesive under the wood...can ya?

Sure would be nice, but one has to practically drag them in front of a PC to get 'em on a message board. Quite a few do at floormasters. Of course many have known Bill Price for years and what he's doing online. As for us? We don't exist.

I think that site has crashed. I havent been able to log on in a few days. Floormasters was a great site in the hay day but it kinda dead the last few years. It got to be a pissing match on every post. You had about three or four guys on there that would troll every post and try to start some sort of controversy. Got pretty old pretty quick. I like this site simply because we can have a debate and nobody really gets all pissy about things. you would also have guys who felt their knowledge was only for professionals only and anytime a dyi person asked a question they would just attack them. Im a pretty handy guy myself and I like to tackle projects around the house when I have the time and message boards are a god send for helping out when all you need is a push in the right direction. Hell I even caught people giving out info that I had given to them years before then acting as they owned it? Kinda silly but hey what can you do?

We got a couple people from Ardex/Henry over at FI.com. T. Schneider keeps posting on the blog there about some kool jobs. Melissa is T's boss me thinks. Nice people and responsive to emails and PM's.But no Mapei or Bostik people. Ya'd think those tech people there would be bored to death and want to post something informative.

Here's T's page if you guys want to ask them a question direct: http://www.flooringinstaller.com/profil ... Schneider&

I asked him what I would need to add to make my own SLC outa modified thinset. But I don't think he will tell me. Hmmmm now that I think about it T could be a girl.

Well, I just invited Tim Martinho to join us. Tim is an expert at Bostik and a great guy. I was very impressed with his workshop at Virginia Hardwood a while back,( before the 2/1 ).
Cross my fingers

Hello all. This is Tim Martinho, Bostik Territory Rep - Northern CA, AZ, NV & NM. I have read your posts and stand ready to answer any question you may have. Our new product, Vapor Lock, is a 2 in 1 product that regulates moisture up to 15 lbs. It "regulates" in the sense that it lowers the moisture transmission to below 3 lbs which is what most wood manufactures state as the max allowable that their wood can accommodate with out problems. The application of the product is very simple. Wood that is 3/8" - 5/8" in thickness is installed using a 1/4 x 1/4 V notch trowel (not a flat V)....there should be no space between the notches. This allows the installer to put down enough material to close any gaps between the notches with normal installation procedures while not putting excessive material so that the installation is messy with adhesive "squeezing" up through the boards. Trowels that have small tabs (to suspend the teeth of the trowel over a solid layer of product) put a lot of product down which can be messy when the board is pushed to far into the product. These special trowels also result in a membrane that is inconsistent in thickness. When the trowel is new, the membrane is thicker.....as the trowel is used and those tabs wear down, the membrane gets thinner. When the trowel is replaced.....thick again.....then thin as it is used. The result is a membrane that is thick in some areas and thin in some areas......throughout the floor. It is critical for the installer to understand the goal when using any urethane moisture barrier. That goal is to get a solid layer of rubber between the wood and the slab. MVP4 guarantees you a solid layer of urethane and is still the best protection (used in conjunction with a urethane adhesive.) It takes a lot of the pressure off of the installer to maintain 100% coverage of urethane between the wood and the substrate. It also has no upward moisture limit. Vapor Lock is a true urethane (not an MS Polymer). It contains 0 VOC, is easy to trowel, holds a ridge really well, very low odor, a Green Product (Leed compliant) and is priced very competitively through our distribution with other single-step products. Thanks to Howard for inviting me to your forum and please let me know if I can answer any questions.

Hello Tim, Thanks for joining in! You have answered alot of my questions but I still have a bunch, I appreciate your help.

1) I have read on the Vapor Lock and Ultra Set. I'm foggy on the difference. I do see that the Vapor Lock mentions "bridging cracks".
2) I didn't realize that the Bostik trowell is a v-notch (without the "tabs"). I'm guessing that the 2/1 levels out to form the barrier, but still leaves a certain tooth height for grab? Or are you basically installing onto a flattened product After re-reading...It looks like your actually forming the barrier upon the plank compressing down on the tooth ridges? If this is correct...I do like the idea over a trowell with "tabs", laying down a "pool" under teeth. Also the consistency of the barrier, as you mentioned.
3) On Best ,EFA,etc. When you go from a 3/8" wood thickness to a 5/8" wood thickness, you jump up in trowell tooth size. The 2/1 is one size fits all?
4) I imagine one problem is changing the method of spreading...When an installer spreads a "section", typically he will spread up to a line. With the 2/1 it's important to spread past the line, to keep a barrier intact. I imagine the best procedure when spreading a section, and coming back the next day, is to "flat trowell", over the line, in order to continue?
5) Re: "MVP guarantees a solid layer of protection and is still the best protection". I must admit, this is good to hear . Can I take that as there's no plans to discontinue MVP in the future?


Well Tim, I'll take a breath Thanks again, Howard

Thanks Howard.

1. Both Ultra-Set and Vapor Lock bridge cracks up to an 1/8" and maintains moisture protection. The membrane stays flexible and bridges the crack vs a rigid epoxy that will crack along with the slab. The difference is that Ultra-Set has excellent ratings for sound abatement. Vapor Lock does not. Ultra-Set is a 3 in 1 (adhesion, moisture control & sound reduction). Vapor Lock is a 2 in 1 (adhesion & moisture control). Also, Ultra Set has no moisture limit...Vapor Lock has a limit of 15 lbs.

2. Your re-read is correct. You are forming the barrier by compressing the adhesive and filling the trowel marks.

3. The trowel recommendations for Vapor Lock are as follows:

Engineered Wood up to 3/8" utilizes a 3/16" x 5/32" V notch (50 SF/Gallon)
Solid Wood up to 3/8" utilizes a 1/4" x 3/16" V notch (35 SF/Gallon)
Engineered/Solid Wood from 3/8" - 5/8" utilizes a 1/4" x 1/4" V notch (30 SF/Gallon)
Wood Flooring over 5/8" utilizes a 1/2" x 15/32" V notch (20 SF/Gallon)

Not exactly "one fits all", but 1/4" x 1/4" should cover the majority.

4. Flat-troweling is a good idea when stopping and starting "mid-floor". Taper down to a feather-edge to 1-3 inches from the edge of the installed section making sure you leave room for the additional adhesive with not height consequence.

5. Absolutely. There are no plans to discontinue MVP4 in the future.

Thanks....ANYTIME!

Tim

Tim, thanks for posting. I liked your explanition of the tabs wearing down. They are pretty small. Do you know who is going to be stocking the Ulta-Set and Vapor Lock here in Tucson? I used to be able to get the EFA but that place stopped stocking it, only can get Best and MVP4. I sure would like to try and use those other new products.

That said I did speak to the Mapei rep today and he offered me 2 free buckets for my next glue down. It's a 1,100 footer first week of December. lol I get nervous using new products. But I sure did like using that CX-1000. Can't get that anymore either.

Thanks for the info.

Virginia Hardwood and Galleher in Phoenix are your nearest distributors of our adhesives and they stock all of our products including Vapor Lock. They probably have a dealer or two in Tucson that can get it for you.

If you are interested in trying our newest Bostik Adhesives, let me know.

Tim