Amish made hardwood

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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture not honoring warranty of defective floor BR111
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:31 am 
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I can take pictures - how do I post to forum?

Ken what does " I agree with that..toss it out" mean?


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Amish made hardwood

 Post subject: Re: Manufacture not honoring warranty of defective floor BR111
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:23 am 
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br111complaints wrote:
Inspection Date: 5-1-10
To: BR111 REP., BR-111 Hardwood Floors
Consumer Information:
Retailer: ( )
Consumer Concern(s): Checking
Individual(s) Present Upon Inspection: Consumer
Product to Inspect: 3/8" x 4" Engineered | Approximate sq ft 900
Hardwood Description:
Engineered - prefinished | Installation Method: Glued Direct | Rooms Installed: living room, two bedrooms, dining room and hallway
Site Description:
Residential | Existing Structure | Condominium | Owner occupied | AC: Central
Subfloor: Concrete | Underlayment: Unknown | Outside Gradient: Away from building
Adults: 2 | Children: 0 | Pets: dog | Heat: Forced Air
History & Maintenance:
Date Installed: 9-1-09 | Date problem(s) Noticed: 1-1-10 | Repairs: No
Product acclimated: Yes | Bldg. Acclimated prior to installation?: Yes | Installed by: Retailer
-The 4” by 3/8” factory finished engineered Oak wood floor installed glue down over a concrete sub-floor above grade in the living room, two bedrooms, dining room and hallway in October/November 2009.
-Consumer noticed checking throughout in March 2010.
Observations:
-A tabletop humidifier was operating at the time of inspection.
-The overall appearance of the floor is flat and without gaps, buckling or cupping.
-80% of the floor is affected with surface checks.
-The checks measure between 1 to 4 inches in length.
-The checks are through the finish and appear flat.
-The checked planks are located in the traffic and non used areas.
-Close inspection showed that the checks are in the oak veneer surface layer in the finish.
- No finish is inside of the check.
-The checks are visible from a standing position.
Applicable Field Tests:
Moisture Content: 10 to 10 % | Meter used: Tramex | Non-Invasive Tests
Indoor Temperature: 70 | Relative Humidity: 42 %
-I used a laser level to measure the floor’s flatness which revealed that the floor is flat and within industry
standards.
-Lignomat Versa Tec invasive moisture meter recorded moisture readings at different levels in the wood
starting on the surface and measuring a moisture reading of 7.9%, 8.7%, 9.8%, 9.5%.
Conclusion:
-80% of the planks are exhibiting a lengthwise separation (checks).
- My inspection revealed no evidence of cracks/splits, but the floor is checking and visible from a standing
position.




Ray, does that look familiar??

This is a QuestInspect.
Looks like Ray, or Linda has edited it from the original.

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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture not honoring warranty of defective floor BR111
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:28 am 
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br111complaints wrote:
Conclusion:
-80% of the planks are exhibiting a lengthwise separation (checks).
- My inspection revealed no evidence of cracks/splits, but the floor is checking and visible from a standing
position.





Hahahahaha!!! The conclusion are just more observations!!!

Ray, you or Linda let that go through?
And Linda gives me hell and I have to correct her.
She is worse than you about editing reports that have been submitted. This has Linda written all over it.

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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture not honoring warranty of defective floor BR111
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:36 am 
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Perry - are you saying that this is insufficient information?


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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture not honoring warranty of defective floor BR111
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:17 am 
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br111complaints wrote:
Perry - are you saying that this is insufficient information?




What is the conclusion?
What is the cause of the checking?


Checking is caused from......


There is no description of the definition of a check.
Where on the boards are these "checks"?
Start at the end cuts/milling and go into the board, or are they in the middle of the board/s?

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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture not honoring warranty of defective floor BR111
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:49 am 
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Ray Darrah wrote:
Stephen:
2. How are checks affected by moisture from below the floor.??
2. You do understand the tramex reads to 3/4" depth giving indication of sub-floor moisture content.
3. What additional information should be placed into this report to give the manufacturer what he needs to determine the Warranty?



1.) Added moisture swells wood cells. BR-111 is sawn, not peeled.

2.) 1-2% gradient in an engineered... A properly constructed engineered should handle that well. End peaking??

3.) the better question.... A judge looking at that report in litigation!!!! YIKES!! :shock:
Don't assume manufacturers know what your talking about. I have had to educate more than one manufacturer or claims person.


Where is the conclusion???
I see more observations.

What was the cause of the claim?

I know what it was, but this inspector and who ever edited the report, still doesn't know, or it would have been included and we would know if it was installation... Manufacturing, or consumer.


This floor went through a winter heating season, only before the concerns were noticed.



Checking is a natural occurrence in wood components that contain the pith, or center of a tree. But what is the cause?

Wood shrinks twice as much in the tangential direction as it does in the radial direction. This can be observed in the amount of shrinkage that occurs in individual pieces of wood cut from trees. But, whenever concentric circles (continuous growth rings) occur in wood, the circumference of those circles (tangential orientation) shrinks twice as much as does the diameter (radial direction). Since the circumference is shrinking at twice the rate as the diameter, something has to give.

One way to visualize how the difference between tangential and radial shrinkage causes checking in logs is to consider the concentric growth rings. The line formed by each growth ring is basically a series of tangent lines, or, one continuous tangent line (in a manner of speaking). As a log dries, the length of each growth ring will shorten by a proportionate amount (tangential shrinkage). But even though the growth rings are shortening, the overall log diameter shrinks at a lesser rate (radial shrinkage). Stresses build up, and checks occur.

The larger diameter outer rings shrink more than the inner rings, since they all lose a percentage of their overall length. Thus, the checks in smaller logs are narrower than the checks in larger diameter logs, just as checks are narrower the closer one gets to the pith. Checking can be avoided entirely by avoiding what is referred to as "heart-centered" wood, which is wood that contains the pith. Whenever continuous growth rings exist, the tangential versus radial shrinkage stresses will cause checking. Can checking be prevented in round wood? Not really.

Since individual boards cut from logs usually do not contain the pith, these boards will not check during drying. Those boards that do contain the pith will typically check only on one side.





The checks were there since the boards were manufactured. They opened up as the wood lost moisture content and shrunk.


Makes you wonder what the MC of the top sawn layer was at time of manufacture, doesn't it.
Request the records (drying schedule) for the charge. Compare it to the Kiln Dry Operator's Handbook schedule for the species.

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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture not honoring warranty of defective floor BR111
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:59 am 
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I don't even see what species of wood in the report!!

That is important.

Every species has different characteristics and shrink & swell at different rates.



Was it installed 9-1-09, or was it installed October/November 2009????
I see both stated.

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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture not honoring warranty of defective floor BR111
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:59 am 
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Location: Tucson AZ
Ray Darrah wrote:
Stephen:
2. You do understand the tramex reads to 3/4" depth giving indication of sub-floor moisture content.


Yes Ray, but how does that relate to a CaCl or rh test? It means nothing and is not quantitative. There's nothing about wether or not they used a trowel on moisture retarder or any moisture testing to begin with.

Just goes to show you one cannot perform a professional hardwood inspection without any destructive field tests. Yet another reason I stopped doing those.

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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture not honoring warranty of defective floor BR111
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:52 pm 
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Floorguy wrote:
I don't even see what species of wood in the report!!

That is important.

Every species has different characteristics and shrink & swell at different rates.



Was it installed 9-1-09, or was it installed October/November 2009????
I see both stated.


Installed on 10/1/10 - sorry I cut and paste this from a PDF and cleaned it up. I must have removed or missed some information. This is Padouk.


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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture not honoring warranty of defective floor BR111
PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:03 pm 
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br111complaints wrote:
Floorguy wrote:
I don't even see what species of wood in the report!!

That is important.

Every species has different characteristics and shrink & swell at different rates.



Was it installed 9-1-09, or was it installed October/November 2009????
I see both stated.


Installed on 10/1/10 - sorry I cut and paste this from a PDF and cleaned it up. I must have removed or missed some information. This is Padouk.




I was talking about this

Date Installed: 9-1-09 | Date problem(s) Noticed: 1-1-10 | Repairs: No


Then just a few lines down in the History...

installed October/November 2009

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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture not honoring warranty of defective floor BR111
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:11 am 
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yes that was my fault. I edited that by mistake. Install date mid October 2009 which went into 11/09.


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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture not honoring warranty of defective floor BR111
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:46 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 6:02 pm
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Location: Florida
Floorguy wrote:
I don't even see what species of wood in the report!!

That is important.

Every species has different characteristics and shrink & swell at different rates.



Was it installed 9-1-09, or was it installed October/November 2009????
I see both stated.


Read the report. It says "oak".
Two dates? One date given by manufacturer with consumer stating October/november 2009. History is the list of consumer statements.

I see why Perry has such a difficult time writing reports. He does not understand "History" or what an observation is compared to a 'field test'.

Checking is a warranty issue depending on the product. Is it an ANSI/HPVA construction or a "decor" engineered floor with RH requirements?

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Hardwood Floor Inspections. Laminate & Tile Floors


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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture not honoring warranty of defective floor BR111
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:48 pm 
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Perry::
BR 111 is sawn, not peeled?

You can make a blanket statement like that?

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Hardwood Floor Inspections. Laminate & Tile Floors


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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture not honoring warranty of defective floor BR111
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:51 pm 
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Perry:
Be specific..
"
3.) the better question.... A judge looking at that report in litigation!!!! YIKES!! :shock:
Don't assume manufacturers know what your talking about. I have had to educate more than one manufacturer or claims person."

Be specific. WHat is wrong and make sure you read the report first. you say no species and yet it is right there in the report.
Secondly::::::::::: you have never in your life educated a manufacturer claims analyst. Nobody even knows you or knows you inspect................. Or tell us who it is u have educated..

I cannot believe you have the nerve to make such statements............ Are you sure this is Perry or is this stephen??

:lol: :roll:

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Hardwood Floor Inspections. Laminate & Tile Floors


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 Post subject: Re: Manufacture not honoring warranty of defective floor BR111
PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:53 pm 
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br111complaints wrote:
yes that was my fault. I edited that by mistake. Install date mid October 2009 which went into 11/09.


You edited the report? what else did you edit?

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Hardwood Floor Inspections. Laminate & Tile Floors


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