We recently had an engineered maple long strip "click" floor floated over a 9 month old slab (new construction) using MFR 2 in 1 vapor barrier. The seams were taped but not rolled up 2" on the walls. The boards are seperating slightly. and the (square, no micro bevel) edges are raised on many of them throughout the 1,000 sf installation. Environmental conditions as follows:
1) AC was not completed-temperature swings in house from 75-90 degrees. AC is working now.
2) Installation looked fine for the first few days-no moisture tests done at time of install. After problem appeared, Rep's Tramex meter registered a 5. Installers Tramex meter registers 2.2 as highest reading. No condensation showing under 3'x3' plastic taped to slab. Calcium chloride test under way now.
3) Wood acclimated in house for over 1 week-left in sealed boxes until installed per Mfr instructions.
4) Maple flooring was contacting sheetrock (baseboard is not in yet) in a few places and these contacts are now cleared.

Questions:
1) Is there an advantage in having a glue together floating floor over a "click"? Sand and re finishing is one that comes to mind. This floor has a 3/16" wear layer but can you sand a "click" floor?
2) Should I consider a different MFR or species? I understand that Maple is relatively unstable.
3) Could the product be defective or contain too much or too little moisture?The product is new and I can't find anyone else who has attempted to float it over a slab.
4) Is it "industry standard" to run the vapor barrier 2" up the wall for on grade slab? Any other advise????? Thanks!

"1) AC was not completed-temperature swings in house from 75-90 degrees. AC is working now. "


YIKES!!! Could be a big concern as jobsite conditions before, during and right after installation, were not up to specifications.


"2) Installation looked fine for the first few days-no moisture tests done at time of install. After problem appeared, Rep's Tramex meter registered a 5. Installers Tramex meter registers 2.2 as highest reading. No condensation showing under 3'x3' plastic taped to slab. Calcium chloride test under way now. "


There are several Tramex meters. Only one will read concrete.



"3) Wood acclimated in house for over 1 week-left in sealed boxes until installed per Mfr instructions. "


Really! Then technically you could say this was manufacturing! LOL! Why, because that is not how moisture content equilibrium acclimation is achieved. Acclimation is not a time measurement(1 week) It is when the wood no longer is gaining or losing moisture content. This can be determined with a hygrometer reading, to where the wood should test/read for moisture content, as moisture content equilibrium is determined by interior humidity.


"4) Maple flooring was contacting sheetrock (baseboard is not in yet) in a few places and these contacts are now cleared. "



My opinion, that isn't your problem and never was, even though some expansion space is needed, but you said your flooring is gapped. This tells me the flooring is shrinking, not swelling(it's losing moisture content.)



"1) Is there an advantage in having a glue together floating floor over a "click"? Sand and re finishing is one that comes to mind. This floor has a 3/16" wear layer but can you sand a "click" floor? "



Yes, you can sand a click. Kahrs floors are sanded all the time.


"2) Should I consider a different MFR or species? I understand that Maple is relatively unstable. "


It is not the wood or the underlayment cushion. This is installation related, as the wood was not acclimated to normal in-home ambient conditions. It was installed "wet" and now it is drying out after the installation. The top of the boards are drier, then the bottom of the boards, now that your A/C is up and running, pulling the humidity from the interior, that the wood flooring was supposedly "acclimated" in. Add the high humidity back into your home, and your concerns will slowly diappear, but you will be living in a wet sauna.


"3) Could the product be defective or contain too much or too little moisture?The product is new and I can't find anyone else who has attempted to float it over a slab. "



No, the installers and your GC were defective!!! No one owned a wood moisture meter, hygrometer, or concrete moisture encounter, nor did they understand what the readings would tell them. They took a risk, and the odds bankrupted them.



"4) Is it "industry standard" to run the vapor barrier 2" up the wall for on grade slab? Any other advise????? Thanks!"



That is just to be sure the edges don't get folded under the flooring. That 2" gets cut off so it is hidden behind the expansion trim. That's not your problem.


This is your GC pushing to hurry up and get the floor in, so you could close on the home, so he could get paid. The installer chose to go ahead and install it, even though the jobsite conditions were not met, and the wood was not acclimated properly. Now that your moved in and the interior ambient conditions are now what we call "living conditions" the wood is losing all that moisture it had gained from the construction(painting, wall mud, tile work, and any other wet trade, along with the windows and doors not on and the HVAC eystem not working and running 2 weeks prior to the start of the acclimation.

I will say one thing about acclimating floating floors. They are not to be opened prior to installation for acclimation. The jobsite does need to be at normal living conditions. So, by not having the HVAC up and operating, the flooring was acclimated sort of in it's cartons still under wrap. However, once installed, the floor really starts to acclimate. Now in your case, it picked up the moisture in your environment and swelled. Then, when you moved it, you turned your ac on and the HVAC unit removed the moisture in your environment and floor. So now it's shrinking, starting from the top down. There may even be a small amount of condensation on TOP of the 2 in 1 pad, contributing to the wet backside, causing the cupping effect. Do NOT sand a cupped floor until it has completely dried and reached equalibrium, which could take 6 months or more.

1) A/C could have been made available but it wasn't ever mentioned by the installer or salesman.
2) I bought the floor from a store that retails hardwood only..from one manufacturer (Shw) but since the product is new, I am the first to install 2 strip maple plank over slab.
3) This store does not provide installers so I picked one (I had an allowance from the general for flooring) and I handled the coordination with the installer.
4) We have not moved in yet and the AC was only turned on today. The problem apperared last weekend after the floor had been in for a few days. I guess the calcium chloride test will provide the conclusive answer to the slab moisture question but I still don't know the moisture content of the wood.

Should I turn the AC off? We are not due to move in for several more weeks. I want to hold off putting the baseboard in until this is resolved.
Can I check the calibration on the Tramex meter? Thanks,

One of the most basic guidelines for ALL wood floors, regardless of who makes it and what it is, is that the environment has to be at normal living conditions prior to the flooring being DELIVERED, not to mention installed. It sounds like yours wasn't and therefore, that's the problem, IMO. The proper course of action is to turn on the HVAC system and set it to normal conditions and see what happens. I have a feeling that not much will change and two, that there is excessive moisture in the concrete getting past that 2 in 1 pad. It maybe that the flooring will need to be replaced.

MFR recomends temp range of 75-80 degrees so I'll leave the AC on for the next week and see what we get. The installer left his Tramex meter for me to test with but since his measures a 2 and the MFR Tramex measures a 5 I think I need to check calibration. Calcium chloride test will be finished on Monday.

1) Is there a good way to check calibration on the Tramex moisture encounter?
2) What is an acceptable readingfor this type of installation? I have seen different MFR specs from 4 to 3.
3) "Normal living conditions" in northern CA valley can be extreme in the summer. It gets over 100 degrees on many days. When we go on vacation we might be willing to set our AC to 85-90 degrees but I can't imagine keeping it at 80 degrees all summer long. I would have considered the new well insulated house to be close to our normal living conditions at 75-90 degrees since the rental we are in now has only swamp coolers and we can't get it below 90 on these hot days. Will most installers refuse to install a floater over slab unless the house has Forced AC?
4) This engineered 2 strip long plank maple has a plywood backing that doesn't seem to include the voids for expansion and contraction that I have seen in other products (Kahrs). I am getting the feeling that all engineered products are considered of near or equal quality on this board and with a new product like the one I used I wonder if this is the case. I am considering purchasing a box of competing product and putting it together next to a new box of my product to see if they react the same. What do you think?
Thanks again.....

Yep, if you'll notice, I'm from E.Conta Costa Co. so I understand CA. weather. Normal temps (interior, NOT exterior) are considered to be 65 to 75 degrees. Normal and suggested RH is 40 to 60 % with 45 to 50% ideal. These are INTERIOR measurements and have nothing to do with EXTERIOR measurements. If it's over 100 degrees outside, you can bet my AC will be on and set below 80 degrees. This will take moisture out of the air and reduce interior RH to below 50% easily. So will running forced air heat that uses gas, oil or wood as a fuel source. And when you go on vacation, you should leave the HVAC system ON and set a bit higher, at the high end of normal. If you do not, you could experience the "greenhouse effect", which can also play havoc on wood floors, furniture and interior trim. Homeowners have a responsibility to maintain their floors properly. One of those maintenence requirements is to keep INTERIOR temps and RH within the factory's recommendations or industry standards. Failure to do that can result in floor failure and is NOT warranted by the installer OR the manufacturer. If the homeowner does not maintain the floor properly, there is no warranty of any kind. Period.

AC is now running, set to 79 degrees for now...I'll bring it down to 75 slowly. I read the instructions for Tramex moisture encounter and I found that when the meter was just sitting on the concrete the reading was a 2 but when the pins were fully depressed per instructions, the reading was a 5. Perhaps my installer was using the meter improperly. I don't think I need to wait for the calcium chloride test to see we have a moisture problem.

Slab is 9 months old (we have not moved in) and still has this moisture content. Engineered (2 strip) "click" longstrip maple is down with 2 in one barrier underneath. AC is running and I understand that the house needs to acclimate for 5 days and I should check RH along with wood and slab moisture. Floor is cupping, gaping and edging (it is a square edged engineered).

1) What are the chances of this floor straightening out? I don't know if the moisture content will come down much in the slab now since it is covered entirely with carpet and wood.

2) If the floor has to come up what would your best recommendation be for our next installation method? We don't want to go through this again!

3) should the slab be sealed with a sealer or is a vinyl lay even beter?

4) Finally, would a high quality glue together engineered be ok in this situation once the slab moisture is dealt with or is click the best for moisture?

Thank you all so much!

1) The concrete MAY stop emitting the same amount of moisture vapor but it will continue to emit some vapor. The 2 in 1 pad will block some of that but some will get through. Who can say if the floor will return to normal? Depends on what caused it to cup and separate this time. My guess is no, it will never be as it should, although it may get better.
2) It depends on concrete moisture evaporation. There are many sealers on the market now that will bring a slab down to acceptable limits. Floaters are ok but I prefer the stable, solid feeling of a glued down floor. A quality engineered floor glued directly with a high quality adhesive using that same manufacturer's concrete sealer would be my choice.
3) Vinyl vapor barriers used to be what we did but sealers today are faster and carry a warranty of sorts. And can be less money as well.
4)If the MC can be brought into specs, then a direct glue down would be my choice. However, after sealing the slab, and it is still not low enough (hard to imagine that being the case), then one could cover the entire slab with a 6 mil polyethylene vapor barrier, drapped up the walls and taped at the seams. Then install a floating floor with a good pad over that. The perm rating of 6 mil poly is extremely low. NEVER had a problem with a floater when laid over 6 mil poly.

This is the second thread I have seen this week about that padding not stopping moisture from coming thru, the first was their 3in1. Was it lapped up the wall 2 inches like they spec?

I don't have much faith in any of them and still put down a 6 mil poly moisture barrier first. Never had a problem that way. You must lap it up the walls a bit.

They call it "quiet step" and it was NOT ran 2" up the wall but their own instructions only require that if the installation is below grade! The rep told me it was industry standard to run it up the walls but some responses on this site state that this is usually trimmed off when baseboard is installed. The seams were taped....but the floor is having the problem throuughout....not just around the edges. Is it "Industry Standard" to run it up the walls like this? Even if it is, this doesn't seem to be the problem at this time. As you said, the barrier didn't seem to stop the moisture from coming through (combined with lack of climate control).
Thanks for the response!!

I think you said this is a 2 board, plank.

Are each board on the plank cupping, or is it the planks edges cupping?

The problem is between the "Click" joints. I'll have to send some pictures. The problem is definitely not as severe as some I have read about on this board. From the cupping perspective, if you stand back and look accross the floor you see slight "waves". The gaps that are appearilng are probably on the order of 1/16"-1/32". The biggest problem is the square edges. The movement has caused some to rise slightly and if you drag your foot across the floor (walking perpendicular to the run of the boards) you hear a noise at almost each seam as your foot drags across the (sharp) square edge. I think if the floor had micro bevels it would not be as pronounced!

What is the relative humidity inside the home? From what you have written, I would wager it is well below what the manufacturer requires.

"Acclimation" has absolutely nothing to do with it.

I disagree. If it had been thoroughly acclimated to the ambient conditions present now, you wouldn't be seeing the planks cupped appearence. The top of the plank is drying out and the bottom is still at, or closer to, installed MC.


If the humidity inside the home now, is below 35% I retract my statement above. That is too low, if it is and raising the humidity to about 45% will help a lot.