Amish made hardwood

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 Post subject: Issue with hardwood floor, please reply
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:11 am 
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Following Summary is continuation of earlier submitted thread.
Summary of the issue: Installer installed scandian Bonita Gold series engineered wood in June 2009 for 1400 sqft. Moisture was not measured before installation after repeatedly asking about it. We started seeing cracks in 1-2 months. Installer and distributor visited the house in November 2009 after repeated phone call from August through November.
They both inspected problem and also found one un-installed plank with cracks. Both convincingly told us that it was problem with the wood. However, the independent inspector sent by manufacturer (who came after 3 months) concluded that the issue is because of high moisture. Installer still maintained that the issue is with wood and that we should get our own independent inspection done. Which we promptly arranged. Independent inspector also concluded that the issue was because of the moisture.
Installer wants us to take legal action against manufacturer. We do not understand the basis for such action when 2 inspections concluded that the issue is because of moisture content. Installer is not ready comment on the inspection reports at all. Everytime we talk, he asks us to file case against manufacturer.
Question 1 : Is this manufacturere issue since we found few un-installed plpanks with cracks in it.
Question 2: If installer was responsible for complete installation then why we should file the legal claim against manufacturer even i?
Question 3 : Installer does not give his opinion about high moisture content. Wood (Scandian) manufacturer recommends Moisture test before installation. The site also recommends moisture barrier for concrete sub-floor.
What should be the next steps?

http://www.hardwoodflooringtalk.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=25&pos=0
http://www.hardwoodflooringtalk.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=25&pos=1
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Amish made hardwood

 Post subject: Re: Issue with hardwood floor, please reply
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:45 am 
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if that meter is corrrect then you have a serious site related moisture problem. 30% is very close to fiber saturation point. YOur floor is suppose to be in the relm of 7-9%. I only see readings like that if there is a leak. You need to locate the sorce of the problem first. Id say that the floor is toast but I cant confirm from my desktop. Id say the floor swelled to such an extent that the face has cracked from the lateral presure. It strange that the uninstalle dwood has checks in the face, did you check the moisture in the unused planks?

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 Post subject: Re: Issue with hardwood floor, please reply
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:52 am 
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Inspectors did not measure the moisture content of un-installed plank. Distributor who came in Nov. 2009 to inspect the wood floor took the cracked plank with him. He has not reutrned it after repeatedly asking about it. Both the inspections happened after Distributor's agent visit.


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 Post subject: Re: Issue with hardwood floor, please reply
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:00 am 
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Shoot the inspector for using the wrong meter. lol That meter will read through to the subfloor, can give false positives.

Get someone in there with a pin meter good gosh. Didn't the rep have a pin meter?

Was the inspector also a carpet cleaner, ie IICRC certified?

If that wood was hitting 30% MC it would have expanded so much it would be pushing your walls out.

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 Post subject: Re: Issue with hardwood floor, please reply
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:07 am 
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So is the floor cupped at all?

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 Post subject: Re: Issue with hardwood floor, please reply
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:29 am 
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KevinD, Floor is not cupped.

floormeintucson : Both the inspectors used pin meter and pinless meter. Following are the details.

March 2010 independent inspector used “TimberMaster Pin Meter” and “MMS NON_INTRUSIVE PINLESS” meter. Following si from the report.
Moisture top of Boards: 17.3% (17-19.9% very hight)
Moisture- Subsurface : 190 to 250 (221-250- excessive)

Independent inspector who came in June 2010 has following in his report:
Using Delmhorst Moisture (with pins) , two moisture tests are performed on the wood in the two affective areas. These readings ranged from 10 percent on top of wood and 22 percent in the bottom of the wood.


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 Post subject: Re: Issue with hardwood floor, please reply
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:34 am 
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Forgot to mention, Upstairs room's wood is in excellent condition. Downstairs all threes areas has cracked planks. Number of cracked planks are increasing in downstairs area. We started seeing cracks in 5-6 weeks after installation in 2 planks intially. Each month number increasing. 15-20 planks are cracked in each room and cracks are shown in the photos.


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 Post subject: Re: Issue with hardwood floor, please reply
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:04 am 
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Well, if the Delmhorst was used correctly, it has clearly shown the moisture to be coming from below the hardwood. Time to do some research into the source.
Those cracks are not going to go away, but I've got a buck saying your floor is.
At this point it's hard to tell who is going to be footing the bill for this, but almost assuredly it wont be the manufacturer, or the didtributor. This leaves a choice between you (probably) and your installer; IF you can prove negligence on his side in not ensuring site condtions were appropriate for the install. Of course, in some cases, conditions may have been fine at time of install, and if he can prove that, you are s.o.l.

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 Post subject: Re: Issue with hardwood floor, please reply
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:06 pm 
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Dennis, thanks for answering my questions.
We asked installer 2-3 times before installation about Moisture test. His answer was "sub-floor is white and not gray so moisture does not present" . He says he does not have any record of moisture test. Manufacturer recommends Moister barrier for Scandian bonita series wood.

We are following up with installer and distributor for more than a year without getting any clear direction for the issue. Each inspection took 3-4 months. We spent lot of time, energy and inspection money. Can anybody guide regarding legal action, that means, how much legal action costs to us and how much time it takes to get the results?


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 Post subject: Re: Issue with hardwood floor, please reply
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:25 pm 
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Well legal legislation can vary so you will need to identify your location, and someone in this forum may be able to give you at least some of the steps involved. But almost anywhere, a lawyer will need to be involved if this is a large dollar amount.

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 Post subject: Re: Issue with hardwood floor, please reply
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:49 pm 
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Dennis, thanks for guidance. Location is Dallas,TX.
All, please if you can shed some ligt on steps needed for legal action with lawyer involvement. How much cost and time is needed if lawyer need to be hired?
Thanks in advance.

:( I wish we would not have installed wood floor - Life would have been much easier:(


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 Post subject: Re: Issue with hardwood floor, please reply
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:33 pm 
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Well, in all fairness to our industry and product, its not the floor in itself that is the problem. It is just the physical manifestation of a completely different issue. Too much moisture emmision from the slab. But as with any product and supplier (installer), unless proper procedure is followed, there is always a chance for failure.
In hindsight, you probably wish you had fallen into the hands of someone more experienced to handle your flooring needs. your installer shows his lack of knowledge of his field with the comment "well the concrete is white, so no problems here" or something like that.

Legally I am useless to you as far as knowledge of procedure. I am in Canada, and we just shoot it out with the varmints that annoy us. (a feeble attempt at levity in what must be trying times for you)
I am sure there are Texas based people here that may have some familiarity with legal processes in your area.

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 Post subject: Re: Issue with hardwood floor, please reply
PostPosted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:44 pm 
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Good to hear someone used a pin meter. The pinless is useless IMHO unless your checking for a leak. Although the first ones numbers don't make sense at all...top to bottom. Second inspection is better.

It's well know in this industry that the lack of moisture testing of concrete it pervasive. Did anyone ever offer or mention to you about using a moisture retarder?

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 Post subject: Re: Issue with hardwood floor, please reply
PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:05 pm 
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floormeintucson, thanks for the response. Nobody asked to use moisture barrier before installation. Moisture presence was detected after independent inspector's testing. After reasearching on web and talking to Distributor got the crystal clear message that moisture barrier is needed for this type of wood.

Installer is not still agreeing that moisture test and moisture barrier is needed. He is just pointing to manufacturer for cracked uninstalled plank. We are trying hard so that all three (Dictributor, Installer and Consumer) come face to face and discuss the issue.


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