Hi. This looks like a great forum to find some answers.

We are having about 2400 sf of 5.5" wide 3/4" solid tiete chestnut prefinished BR-111 flooring installed over plywood (northern New Jersey). I'm hearing different things on the correct installation from my installer and from the BR-111 rep. So I come online to look into things for myself and after an hour I'm totally confused! I know this has been askes a million times, but maybe someone can give me a clue?

My contractor (installer) has started putting down red felt, but the BR-111 rep recommends glueing 5.5" planks, which of course requires us to not use felt. So my questions are:

1. Does the NWFA (is that the correct name?) recommend glueing the planks directly to the sub floor if you have 5.5" planks (this is what the BR-111 rep recommends)?
2. If we don't really need the felt, then why does anyone use it? Or, does using glue prevent the need for the felt somehow?
3. Is there a concise list of installation recommendations from somebody like the NWFA? For instance, I want to be sure my installer uses the correct spacing for nailing, and so on.

We are starting this project probably early next week.

Thanks for any comments!

Dan

3/4" x5 1/2" solid plank is a nail down product. I dont know where the BR-111 Rep is coming from saying glue it down. Maybe he or she is confused with an engineered product.

What I dont understand is why your speeking to the rep about installation, when you have a flooring installation contractor, and reps sell. If you dont feel comfortable and have confidence in your installer, for some reason, that's not a good way to start this project. When you hire a professional, you shouldnt have to worry about the installation, he is the pro. Has he given you any reason to question his knowledge, in his trade?

Yes, red rosen or felt is the correct underayment for naildown.

For many years, solid plank floors were recommended for nail down only. However, using this type of installation procedure, it does not address wide plank's propensity to expand and contract more than strip flooring. NOFMA has, in the past, recommended screwing and plugging the ends on wide plank installations. The NWFA takes most of it's recommendations on installation from NOFMA. That being said, a number of professional installers for the last 10 yrs or more, have begun using adhesives in conjunction with nailing on solid wide plank installations. Carlisle, a large manufacturer of solid, wide plank flooring, has recommended using adhesive, as well as blind nailing, for over 20 years. SIKA, a major adhesive manufacturer, has developed adhesives designed to be used with solid wide plank flooring.

As an installer, I know nailing only is way easier than nailing and gluing. I also know a nail down only wide plank floor will exhibit more movement than a glued and nailed floor. Another issue is the species of wood you are using. Many exotics, when properly acclimated, do not expand and contract quite as much as some N. American hardwoods ( they are more stable ). But another issue comes into play. Because they are so hard, tongue split and breakage is common. This reduces the fastener's ability to hold the flooring securely in place. The result may be some squeaking and excess movement. Gluing as well will aid dramatically in reducing these possibilities.

IMPO, a premium installation of a solid wide plank floor would include nailing and gluing. A customer should expect to pay more for an installation of this type. The adhesives are expensive and it takes nearly double the labor time to glue and nail as opposed to nailing only. As to felt paper, red rosin has no moisture vapor reducing properties. It will aid in sliding the flooring into place easier and assist in helping the installation remain quieter ( no "wood on wood" issues ) but it serves no other function. Both NOFMA and the NWFA, as well as most manufacturers, recommend 15 lb. asphalt saturated felt paper. Another good option is Aquabar "B", especially for pre-finished flooring. Of course, if one is gluing as well as nailing, one cannot use paper of any sort. This installation requires the substructure to be completely dry and remain that way. If there is a crawl space, it needs to be covered with 8 mil polyethylene. Basements cannot be damp or high in humidity. But these requirements pertain to nail down only installations as well because using asphalt felt is not a moisture barrier. It is considered to be a moisture vapor retarder/diffuser.

One last thing. Just because someone labels themself as a professional, it does not mean they know it all and always provide the best. We hear many horror stories of how "professionals" have cut corners and done shoddy work from either lack of knowledge, trying to minimize expenses or just plain lack of caring. In your situation, I would insist BR-111 provide you with the exact installation instructions for the product you are having installed. Get it in writing. Then, you know what the manufacturer requires for their warranty to be in effect.

Yes, I would like to call BR-111 directly and see what they say about installation rather than rely on 1 rep. Just to clarify some points: This house was mostly torn down and rebuilt, and I am using a general contractor. We're in our 10th month of work (really!) and I have found that this contractor is honest and very fair, but I think he tends to do more traditional jobs that are straight forward. He's probably mostly done your standard oak floors. He had never done spray foam insulation jobs, for example, which I insisted on and had to arrange for myself. We also did lots of glass and mosaic tiles in the bathroom, which, again, my contractor wasn't too familiar with. After redoing much of the work, they did get it right and things are good. My wife and I have taken a VERY long time to make certain decisions regarding various materials, including flooring. We settled on BR-111 tiete chestnut in the wider plank, and it was at that point that my contractor, to his credit, brought up an issue. One of his flooring suppliers (50 years in biz) said they won't carry the 5.5" anymore because of too many problems with gaps opening up and customers complaining. That gave us pause as of late last week, and so I was able to talk to the BR-111 rep at a flooring retailer located in the same commercial park as my business. That rep is a former installer and said he has 6" plank flooring in his own house, not to mention that they sell wide plank all day long, so it shouldn't be something to worry about IF it is installed correctly. His recommendation was to BOTH nail and glue the planks directly to the plywood subfloor. When I say nail, I'm talking about going into the tongue at the edge of each plank, and not nailing directly down through the top of the plank, of course.

So I'm seeing one recommendation for nail and glue, and one for nail and red rosin only? I don't think moisture is a problem as there is central air, including the basement. I'd only be concerned about floor squeaks, which hopefully glue will take care of.

Here is the installation instructions for br-111

http://www.br111.com/pdf/34Solid_Install.pdf

I find it interesting that not many manufactures recommend gluing with their 5.5 inch boards. Makes you wander what the best method is.

From BR-111


Remove flooring from several different cartons to
maximize color and shade mixture.
Stagger the ends of boards at least 6” in adjacent rows.
Installation parallel to the longest wall provides best
visual effect.
Before you begin installing the hardwood floor, cover subfloor area with 15 lbs. asphalt felt.

What about like Gary mentioned, if your gluing as well ???

You surely wouldn't want to lay felt.

I past the part in the BR-111 installation specs, where it says anything about glue.

What I'm saying is... The Installer is preparing to do a naildown. The BR-111 Rep. is talking about a gluedown. BR-111 specs say install felt ( you dont install felt for a gluedown), and Gary mentioned a combination of glue & nail.
Who's on first!?


Let me clarify another point I was trying to say (but not that well), about having confidence with the installer as a professional.
I guess if I'm hiring a "professional", and paying him, I would expect him to know about what I'm hiring him for, without ME worrying about it. But I understand the situation now. And I do understand, Gary, what your talking about is unfortunate, but true. Being brought up in this business I take great pride in being a "professional" in my trade. You cant be expected to know everything, and your always learning. If I'm not familiar with a product, or type of installation a manuf. specs, It's my obligation to my customer and myself to be educated before taking on the task , and would hope the customer respects and has peace of mind with hiring me. But as I said , I understand the situation.

They don't, at least in their instructions. Of course, the instructions are generic for ALL of their solid flooring, regardless of width. The OP can certainly have their floors nailed down only. It is not "wrong" per se. If the homeowners can achieve and maintain constant RH in their home, then little movement should be expected, even from a wide plank. That said, it is also "not wrong" to glue and nail the flooring down. This would be considered a premium installation, as it involves more labor and materials. In my experience installing wide plank floors, the floors will be quieter, feel more solid and resist movement much better when gluing and nailing. Seasonal gapping should be minimal, if at all. It is the homeowners decision if they want to pay extra for this type of installation.

Manufacturers specs, trump all but ANSI.

In the event of a claim, and it is found the floor was glued and no felt, you may be buying new wood, even though you feel the glue and no felt were not the problem.

If the manufacturer says to do something, you better do it.

I have done jobs where the manufacturer requires you to use a certain method. While it may not be what is in the realm of what your used to, they have their reasons. I'ts good to keep an open mind, and familarize yourself. You will realize why that certain method is required.

Well, I appreciate all the replies here. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a clear answer! I'm going to call BR-111 directly on Monday, rather than talk just to the local rep. BR111 doesn't warrantee installations, just the product itself, so I doubt they would cover anything other than their prefinish warrantee (but that's just my guess).

My installer likely will not charge me extra to glue down the floor. When he bid the job it was with the understanding that he would do whatever was necessary to install things correctly. This is partly why I am looking for an "official" recommendation on the correct way to do it. I think I just need to speak to BR111 and see what their attitude is towards glueing.

Also, I note that they spend a lot of time talking about humidity, which concerns me a bit. The house does not have the a/c up and running yet and won't for a couple of weeks. I'm going to try and measure the humidity in the house today and see if it is an issue. I know the flooring is being stored in a warehouse just a couple of miles away.

Installing next week ???

Big mistake not acclimating the wood , as per manuf. , under normal living conditions, ( with HVAC up and running ).

I foresee this will become an issue if BR-111 gives the ok to glue and nail. On a 4500 ft 6" install I did last year, the adhesive cost was over $1,500.00 That was for SIKA adhesive in the sausages. It worked very well but took considerable extra time. Not getting paid for providing more labor and materials for someone else's home is a poor way to start any project, IMO.