In the BR-111 instructions they do separate the wider planks by stating the should be nailed or stapled at closer intervals, so if they wanted it glued I think they would have mentioned it at that point.

[quote="GaryI foresee this will become an issue if BR-111 gives the ok to glue and nail. On a 4500 ft 6" install I did last year, the adhesive cost was over $1,500.00 That was for SIKA adhesive in the sausages. It worked very well but took considerable extra time. Not getting paid for providing more labor and materials for someone else's home is a poor way to start any project, IMO.[/quote]

I'm OK with paying something extra if it is really the correct thing to do. If he asks for additional $ to cover the glue or whatever, I'll pay it. He has been very fair with pricing so I'm willing to kick in as needed. Some things he's covered no charge, others he's asked for additional $.

What I'm not happy about is the order in which things have been getting done. My heat works, but they still haven't finished off the a/c (installing compressors, putting in zone valves, etc). As a result, we are putting the floor in with no a/c at least for another week or two. I put a thermometer in the main room today and it read 71F and 64% humidity after several hours. I had heard about allowing wood to acclimate to the room and asked him this early on. His reply was that people mostly do that in the winter, and it isn't so much of an issue in the summer. I know there's doing things strictly by the letter, and then there's doing things practically. I have a wide plank, dense exotic wood that will go into a room that is a little high in humidity. Will this ruin the job? I tend to doubt it, but maybe I'll end up with larger gaps than otherwise. Is this an issue worth delaying my project for at least another month (2 weeks for a/c, 2 weeks for acclimation)?

Thanks.

If the wood is a solid and is installed now, your going to get compression cupping unless the moisture content of the flooring is in the 12% range, or higher... Yikes!!! .
Then you have this, if it is installed in the 12% range and you have a plank that is 5½ inches wide, you move in and the wood finally equalizes moisture content at a comfortable humidity for living conditions, say around 40%rH and the 5½ inch planks are going to have a moisture content around 7-7.5%, a 5% gradient. Your going to have tongues disengaging.

How much cash are you investing here? Let me ask, is it worth it to you?

What determined, that exactly in 2 weeks, the woods moisture content will be where it needs to be?

I'm thinking that the flooring going into this house must have a total value of over 25 g's. Worth waiting a month (or more) for proper site conditions? Sure would be for me. Not to mention the aggravation of moving back out if the floor needed repalcement.

OK, Floorguy et al. Interesting (frustrating) developments today. My contractor surprised me by saying that he has heard bad things about BR-111 and he doesn't want to install it. He also said he doesn't want to install 5.5", so I'm a little unclear whether it is just BR-111 or just BR-111 and ANY brand of wide plank. I think maybe the latter. Basically he uses his own crew, who really aren't trained flooring professionals. They're jack-of-all-trade types who do some demo, prep for plumbers, tile and stone work, and your basic 3" oak flooring. He subs out the big stuff like framing and siding.

He says he'll refund me the cost to do the floor and I can have someone else do the work. I think he basically doesn't want the liability for a job that is over his head.

The job is about 2300 sf, and the floors have already been prepped with 3/4" plywood. We're talking three floors of about 1000 sf, and the other floors about 600 sf and 700 sf. If I go out to bid this job, what do you guys think I should expect to pay in northern NJ? Assume I'm glueing and nailing down, but the prep work has already been done. Oh, BR-111 did recommend glue in addition to nailing down.

So, 1) is there anything to this idea that BR-111 is not a good brand? and
2) any ballpark figures on the cost to lay down this flooring?

Thanks again!

You may be frusterated, but it's a blessing in disguise that this guy got cold feet and bailed. Your so much better off having a journeyman hardwood installer, installing your floor. Protect your investment. Usually hardwood is the last thing to go in a home. By this time the homeowner just wants the darn thing done. But it's not worth cutting corners on time or labor.

BR-111 is a great brand. I have installed thousands of feet, and their solids are top quality. I do have issues with their engineered, with the "paper thin" top layer.

Labor prices vary around the country. You will have to get a ballpark from someone familiar with New Jersey. Out here in Las Vegas a naildown is 3.00-3.50. But then add the gluing. Gary mentioned it's twice the labor. When I have installed BR-111, I have strictly nailed, and not glued, havent had a problem, and the floors feel solid. I will definetely look into gluing & nailing my next BR-111 installation, since this is what their calling for.
Maybe BR-111 has someone in your area they feel comfortable with, that is familiar with their product. Maybe the Rep can give you a ballpark price range on labor, since he was an installer.

Floorologist: Thanks for the comments. I understand the blessing in disguise, I was thinking the same thing, but I have to work out whether this is going to cost me significantly more than what it was, and how much, etc etc.

To be clear, this is what happened with BR-111 re glue and nail: The local rep (former installer) said I need to nail and glue down. Two customer service rep girls at BR-111 on the phone said NOT to glue, just to nail. I got back to the local rep and he said they must've thought I was talking about glue OR nail, not both (I'm not sure whether I told the girls glue and nail or just glue). He called the company back to confirm, and then called me back saying that they recommend glue and nail for the 5.5". He recommended I ask for a technical service rep and they will tell me the same thing, rather than someone who, I guess, is reading the standard line off a spec sheet. I didn't call the company back as there seems to be no reason for him to make this up.

I would sure have a few questions for BR-111's installation experts, and this should be of interest to you, ( trying to keep the labor price within a certain range ). And a combination install will certainely push the price up.

1) I understand why a combination glue & nail installation is a "premium"method,( i.e. the points that Gary mentioned ). Is BR-111 REQUIRING gluing in ADDITION to nailing , for this specie, in 3/4 inch,in 5.5 width, to keep warranties in effect ? ( If they do, obviously you have to have it installed that way ).

2) If a naildown installation, by the specs, without gluing, does not void my warranty. What does BR-111 feel the disadvantages would be , again on this particular wood, to not gluing also.

Every manuf. has 1 or more installation "Expert". This person is well worth the phone call.
You will be able to weigh out your options, without question. If your under warantee with a straight naildown, and your o.k with that type of installation, or you just want the "premium"installation, and are willing to pay. or you have to have it to keep warantees in effect.

I asked the customer service rep on the phone about warranties. They do not warrantee installations, only the surface of the wood (the finish). So glue or no glue has nothing to do with the warrantee (25 years).

I'll try to call the company again about glue vs no glue as I'm starting to think it might be prohibitively expensive. I believe the company line from the local rep is that glueing gives you the best chance for minimal to no movement, but naildown would be OK if necessary. I mean, the BR-111 installation instructions that were posted above don't even specify glue. How critical can it be? If I can get it done for a reasonable price then I will, but as of this hour I don't even know how much my contractor will be refunding.

I have installed, and had my crews install many thousands of "wide" plank floor over the years. Generally a 5 - 6 inch plank will only be nailed down, supplimented by t&g glue on the end joints. (my procedure, not the industry's). When laying much wider planks say 8 to 11 inches, we add a zigzag bead of adhesive on the bottom of the boards, near the groove edge.
This is because I feel the nail rows are too far apart with these much wider boards. However, I think that your install process will have to be determined by your own comfort level with the install.
If the floor is properly acclimated, and site conditions are correctly maintained, I can see no value in gluing a 5 inch plank down.
It's your call. BTW, in our area, a valid install rate would be about $2.50 per square foot, including fasteners and underlay. Adding a bead of glue would increase the rate by $0.75, full trowel glue would add about $1.50.

[quote="Dan White"]

I asked the customer service rep on the phone about warranties. They do not warrantee installations, only the surface of the wood (the finish). So glue or no glue has nothing to do with the warrantee (25 years).

No Manuf. warranties installation, and installation has nothing to do with their finish warranty.

Usually a manuf. specifies installation procedures , to keep their products warranty in effect. And are suppose to be followed to the letter. I'm sure they offer a "structural" warranty, this is affected by how their product is installed ,and site conditions, this is why they specify procedures. Has nothing to do with installation warranty.

I have done this gluing procedure on Wider plank. An 11 inch reclaimed pine floor, but zig zag the whole bottom of the plank, with Bostik Best sausages. But I too, feel it's a waste of time & money on a 5.5 inch. And if I remember, like Gary said, it was like twice the labor. Your up and down twice as much, you cant get a rythem going, and those sausages are a fortune.

I've never "full trowell glued" and nailed. How do you go about that , other than spreading each row at a time, or buttering the back side of the plank ? Sound like one heck of a mess

OK, thanks for everybody's input so far. I've had a couple of people look at the job already and give me bids. Here's one question I have. Both installers (plus a third by phone) have said they will not take the job without glue. I'm OK with that as it doesn't seem to add that much to the job. Here's the thing though. One installer will (I believe) glue the back of each board, and the other is going to put glue down on the floor in strips every 8 inches perpendicular to the direction of the planks. Does it matter?

Also, one installer will only lay flooring perpendicular to the joists, while the other highly recommends that but will go the other way if it is a hallway etc, but warns that it could be a problem later. About half of the job is over existing, old joists (50 years old) so I don't know if that is good or bad re potential settling if we go in the direction of the joists. I don't see this as a big issue because I'm mostly fine with going perpendicular... just wondering.

Thanks.

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