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 Post subject: Installers willing to give opinion on delamination
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:30 pm 
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OK I wrote earlier about my nightmare with an engineered hardware floor (Vanier Cosmopolitan Santos Mahogany) that was acclimated in my home for 12 days prior to installation in my home in Las Vegas. It was mostly installed in September 2011 when it began to check and delaminate. It took 5 weeks for the manufacturer to send inspector who made a very quick inspection, and did not even look at wood that had the same problem that had not even been installed yet , did not take subfloor moisture levels, and did not even look at 1st floor level flooring. This inspectors report did not give any opinion whatsoever. The manufacturer blamed all the problems on improper installation conditions. By the way, the inspector measured the suface moisture of the flooring at 11%, and the moisture level in the interior the the wood at 6 %. This inspector also measured the relative humidity in the house at 31%. I disputed the credit card charge for this flooring.
Anyway, any installers out there willing to provide their opinions that delamination of my floor represents a manufacturing defect, and is (should be?) unrelated to any environmental conditions in my house? Of course this assumes my floor has not literally been flooded (which it has not). For some reason, even though I forwarded the report of a certified flooring inspector stating exactly this, the credit card company wants the opinion of another installer. (Best if from Nevada). I can forward the inspectors report to you if this helps. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Installers willing to give opinion on delamination
PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:40 am 
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You need to talk to Floorologist. Course he would want to be paid as would I. It would involve performing another inspection to be legit.

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Floor Repairs and Installation in Tucson, Az
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com


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 Post subject: Re: Installers willing to give opinion on delamination
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:21 am 
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Well here is what my complaint about the installers here who stated emphatically here that an engineered wood floor should not delaminate (without examining my floor) unless it is literally flooded. Well now it appears no one wants to back that opinion up. I do not understand why the credit card company wants a letter from another installer, when they already have a full written report from a certified wood flooring inspector stating very clearly that his determination is that delamination is a manufacturing responsibility. I think the credit card company is just looking for an excuse to not act on this issue.

Anyway, I have just gotten a couple of estimates to fix this problem costing in the tens of thousands of dollars as i predicted, and I think these contractors will supply a letter. Please note that the cost of the replacement wood recommended is actually cheaper than the cost of the wood originally installed which has dozens of delaminations.


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 Post subject: Re: Installers willing to give opinion on delamination
PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:15 am 
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parrotboy wrote:
Well here is what my complaint about the installers here who stated emphatically here that an engineered wood floor should not delaminate (without examining my floor) unless it is literally flooded. Well now it appears no one wants to back that opinion up. I do not understand why the credit card company wants a letter from another installer, when they already have a full written report from a certified wood flooring inspector stating very clearly that his determination is that delamination is a manufacturing responsibility. I think the credit card company is just looking for an excuse to not act on this issue.

Anyway, I have just gotten a couple of estimates to fix this problem costing in the tens of thousands of dollars as i predicted, and I think these contractors will supply a letter. Please note that the cost of the replacement wood recommended is actually cheaper than the cost of the wood originally installed which has dozens of delaminations.



Well sir, it would be highly unethical for any of us to write you a report without inspecting it.
However you can find numerous articles about it on the web, written by highly regarded experts to help back your position.
You have been given the tools (Hardwood Plywood Veneer Ass., ASTM link) and numerious reasons why the wood delaminates and how they try and get out of it, the reasons why humidification is helpful and why they use that against you.

Do I like the way manufacturers weasel out of it, NO. Do I think your credit card company is being threatened or afraid of a lawsuit if they do, probably.

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Top Floor Installation Co.
Tucson, Arizona
Floor Repairs and Installation in Tucson, Az
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com


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 Post subject: Re: Installers willing to give opinion on delamination
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 5:43 am 
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You are the credit card company's customer. The way they work is you submit the complaint and they notify the other party. They have so long to reply or contest it if they don't you win, if then you hsve to prove your case. I have written letters before but were never abel to be used because I am not a certified inspector. And no certified inspector is going to write you a letter without inspecting the flr as that is how they make a living and it costs a lot of money to be certified.


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 Post subject: Re: Installers willing to give opinion on delamination
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:26 am 
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Well installers here have said that unless the floor is literally flooded that an engineered hardwood floor should not delaminate. Therefore, any installer who holds this opinion could state ethically and honestly, without ever examining a floor that, and I quote, "according to the U.S. standards, ANSI/HPVA EF 2009 that an engineered hardwood floor, should not delaminate under normal flooring conditions (not flooded) anywhere in the continental U.S., including the dry conditions of Nevada." No reference need even be given to my particular house or flooring.

Once again, I already have a report issued by a certified flooring inspector stating that the problems in my floor are "manufacturing responsibility." That is why I think it is B.S. that the credit card company is asking an opinion of an installer who is not necessarily certified to do anything regarding my flooring.


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 Post subject: Re: Installers willing to give opinion on delamination
PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 4:01 pm 
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Yea well if were up to me no one could get certification without having been a certified journeyman for several years. There's just to many inspectors out there without any on the floor experience IMO. Perhaps thats why, and that can be a good thing.

With that said...I believe you should NOT have to be a certified inspector to give an opinion on a floors problem if your a seasoned contractor in that field. As a matter of fact I believe there are quite a few experts out there in the hardwood field who have never been certified, but have many many years in the field under their belt. Heck, they even teach at certification schools and write articles for trade magazines. Oh look, there goes one now, quick...click on it:
http://www.fcimag.com/Articles/Feature_ ... 0000403305


Snippet: However, there are engineered manufacturers that recommend the use of their product only where the environmental conditions are within a specified relative humidity range, typically from 30 – 35% to 50 – 65%. You note that these are the same as with solid wood. When issues arise, particularly those associated with delamination, claims have been denied because the recorded humidity was above or below the recommended range. Both NOFMA and the HPVA (Hardwood Plywood Veneer Association) feel that properly manufactured engineered flooring should not delaminate under normal environmental conditions associated with any area in the USA. This includes the desert southwest with typically low humidity and the gulf coast and southern coast with typically high relative humidity. end


But then they should accept any ASTM publication. Like I mentioned before, the UBC I think also states one can't sell stuff that will not perform in that said area or zone.

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Top Floor Installation Co.
Tucson, Arizona
Floor Repairs and Installation in Tucson, Az
http://www.tucsonazflooring.com


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