I've read that installation requires the flooring to run at a right angle to the floor joists. The floor joists run the length of the room - 25ft long. The width is approximately 15 ft. If do I that, the narrowness of the room might be accentuated; I've also read that if one doesn't run boards perpendicular to floor joists, one has to lay another layer of ply over the floor. Your feedback would be much appreciated. Thanks.

That is correct. Typical subfloor materials are 5/8" and 3/4" plywood and 3/4" OSB. These floors are usually installed over floor joists that are set 16" oc. If your joists are running the length of the room and you wish to install the floor in the same direction, you should either add a layer of 1/2" CDX plywood or, if you have access to below (a basement ), you can add 2x4 blocking 16" oc in between the joists. Both will work equally well but the extra plywood will raise the height of the floor and give you a stiffer floor.

Gary, Can you give any examples of what could happen if you don't do it correctly. Sometimes I have customers that have to have that direction but for some reason want me to do the work you described for free ... How firm are you on this particular rule??
Thanks,

Well William,
It's not my rule. Both the NWFA and Nofma have set forth these installation guidelines ( note I used the term guidelines, not rules ). And I have laid 3/4" x 2&1/4" solid strip over 5/8" ply that was over joists 16" oc. I have laid it paralell to the joists. This is what I have experienced when doing so.
1) The floors have a tendency to be noisier, more squeaks and pops.
2) the subfloors may dip in between the joists and on a finish in place, now you are trying to sand hills and valleys. You know what a difficult task that is.
3) On a prefinish, the joist location can telegraph through to the face; especially if a strong, low light source (patio door) is shinning down the length of the floor. It can be noticeable.

When dealing with customers who attempt to tell me my business and how I should install the floors, I simply whip out the NWFA Technical Reference Manual and point to the section that refers to the situation. That shuts up about 75% of them. To the rest, I say, "You hired me not because I was the cheapest but because you trust that I will do an excellent job. Now if I do not follow the manufacterers instructions and guildlines, I am breaking the trust you have in me. I do not want to do that. If it is not in the budget to do the job correctly, then perhaps we can scale the work down a little to be within budget or find a product that is less costly". Now if after that, they still relent, I can tell you they are general contractors 'cause no homeowner is gonna want you to do a crap job on their house. But a general might 'cause all his interested in is HIS schedule and HIS checkbook. Then, if I haven't pissed 'em off by now with my insistance on doing things the right way, I'll ask for a written waiver. That usually catches their attention because they do not want to be responsible for their misguided cheapness. At that point, I either get the waiver, or they hire someone else they can bully.
Let me say, this is how I do it now. I haven't always done it this way. I used to let others push me around and let them tell me how to do my job because I was afraid to stand up to them for fear of losing the work. Well, that fear was unfounded. Yeah, I probably do lose a few bids because I like to do things right. But I sleep better at night and have never been not working for more than a week (we can always use a week off to go fishing or whatever). So, in the end, I feel better about myself knowing that I haven't been pushed around by someone and I have performed to the best of my ability. Who wants to be known as a hack?

Awesome Gary, thanks...I must admit it was a bit of a loaded question. I knew most of the technical reason, but I needed the attitude behind it as a reminder that I shouldn't give in to what others may think they want. Ever have some lah-ti-dah designer tell you SHE thinks that boards running across an entry "says STOP to me" ? They look at me like I got two heads when I explain the need to run perpendicular to joists... you know me ... new business owner .. still somwhat manipulatable...just waitin to be tossed under the bus ... Thanks for the extra umph I needed to tell HER 'too bad' at the meeting tomorrow ... if you know what I mean.

I deal with decorators/designers all the time. Can be difficult because they usually are soooo opinionated. I'm working with one now and me and the general want to install the base first (10" colonial, painted) then install the floor then have baseshoe (painted to match base) installed. You know, the right way. The decorator says I should cut the floor tight and net to the baseboards and that she sees installers doing "all the time". I tell her, "Well, they're doing it wrong all the time". Of course she is insistant so I use the " just sign the waiver" routine. At this point, the homeowner steps in and comments, "we don't like waivers around here." I left it at that. Figured it was the general's issue to work out. I've done his floors for years and he's a good guy. Well, good luck in dealing with your decorator. Just tell her you'll put down the 1/2" ply and how much it will cost. I typically give them a break on this because it is an expense they weren't expecting. So I charge $2.00 a ft. including the ply, which is $64.00 a sheet. I can staple it down real fast and with my Senco stapler, it hold real well. You can glue and screw but why drive up the cost. My stapled floors are rock solid 'cause I staple the crap out of them. I pity the fool that would ever attempt to remove that plywood. And just use the less expensive three ply instead of the more expensive 5 ply. For underlayment, works fine. Use lots of staples; that is the key. Just tell the decorator you'll be happy to lay the flooring in the direction she wants but you need to install this plywood first and this is how much it will cost. She shouldn't care about the cost since she isn't paying the bill anyway, her customer is. If she gripes, use the waiver technique. Got to stand up to those pushy dames! Good luck!

Yes the waiver lets them know you were not joking around. It also lets you know exactly what type of client you have on your hands.

Someone that demands you do it their way, but refuses to sign a waiver...

I have yet to come up with a multi purpose release waiver. One that can be filled out and written up quickly. Pluss 2 copies are needed.

Any Ideas how to word a generic waiver that can be modified to be specific?

That sounds oximoron.

WAIVER OF RESPONSIBILITY

Customer: Job Site Address:

______________ ___________________
______________ ___________________
______________ ___________________

Contract Reference/Date:_____________________________________

Conditions and/or subsurface structure on the above referenced job have been found to be at variance with acceptable conditions necessary to extend our usual guarantee on the hardwood flooring we have contracted to install. The condition(s) noted are:
_____________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________

This is to advise you that we will not proceed with the installation until the condition(s) described above have been corrected, except on your specific instructions. Your countersignature below confirms your instructions to proceed and confirms that you assume full responsibility for defects in the completed installation and/or finished hardwood floor which may arise from these conditions.

Name:_________________________
Title: _________________________

Countersigned:

Name:_________________________
Title: _________________________
Firm: _________________________
Date: _________________________


A publication of the National Wood Flooring Association
Copyright 1990 National Wood Flooring Association

I don't like the part about copyright on the bottom.

Gary change a couple of works or rephrase something!! LOL

Take the copyright off there!

Hi guys!

From the consumer standpoint and less aggravation to the installer I think the contract should indicate the flooring will be installed perpendicular to the joists with an option to install parallel to the floor at an added cost.

Of course if all else fails that waiver should come in handy.

Just my opinion.

Mike

I have never lost money, on a job I didn't do!


I live by that and sometimes starve by that. Some are not as lucky.

I do sleep good at night.

This is the exact wording of the NWFA waiver. The copyright was put there because since I was posting this on a public forum, I did not want to be in violation of a copyright law. I did not design nor come up with this wording. Again, this is the NWFA,s "specimen" waiver.

Gary, the copyright also means you cannot copy and post it here, without written permission.

OPPS! Guess I'll have to watch out for the copyright infringement police!

Here is another form for you guys. Its from Fred Gamble. Thanks Fred and Gary as well. I like the one you posted its quite simple and to the point.
What you do not want is a overly complicated waiver. I was just speaking to a construction law lawyer about this the other day. I will be installing his flooring. lol

http://www.afsenterprises.com/Forums/fi ... Record.doc

Maybe Ken could sticky these for installers here. This is a Word doc.