I purchased some engineered Santos Mahogany flooring from an online retailer (5" width random lengths, 3 mm wear layer) The wood arrived and were brought into the house and several boxes were unpacked and examined without problems noted. The boxes were placed in a couple of rooms of the house with HVAC settings at 78- 80 degrees throughout house throughout acclimation period. The installer I hired had agreed to be present for the delivery and bringing the wood in to assist with acclimation. The wood acclimated for 12 days prior to the start of installation. Prior to installation, the installer had done an inspection and found that the upstairs wood subflooring had some areas of unevenness which he had charged me an additional fee of $750 to correct. In first week from start of installation noted new hairline cracks along grain of wood. During second week noted obvious case of delamination of a plank. Manufacturer notified, installer agreed there is an issue that needs inspector, and manufacturer agreed to sent inspector after photos sent to them. Still waiting for inspection and problems continue to develop with many many additonal hairline cracks, multiple new areas of clear delamination, and now some pretty obvious cupping along edges of significant portions of upstairs flooring. Most problems noted on biggest upstairs room although cracking also noted on downstairs flooring as well (concrete slab) . Cracks also noted to develop in unused wood. 1/2" expansion areas were allowed in all flooring borders, and Bostik urethane glue used according to installer. I did research on both the installer and manufacturer prior to purchase. Installer had uniformly good reviews, and manufacturer had mixed reviews on product, with older reviews having some horror stories, but recent reviews good.

Very frustrating since cannot move into house; no furniture, staircase not completed, and manufacturer keeps making excuses why inspector has not done inspection.
Can I trust the inspector sent by the manufacturer to be independent and give an unbiased expert opinion? Based on my description of events, is there anything that I as the homeowner should have done differently? Based on my description of events is this a acclimation problem, installation problem or manufacturing problem, or a combination of things. What can I do to not get screwed in having paid for hardwood flooring installation, but getting a lousy floor with visible worsening issues? I have contacted my own inspector, and the installer has even volunteered to pay for another certified inspector. WHAT SHOULD I DO?

Good to hear that you got your own inspector..

This statement speaks volumes to me, " Cracks also noticed to develop in unused wood"

let me guess..product was triangulo or BR111..
how you can even write such a post is beyond me..

you bought the materials online..you own them..

you note materials unused in boxes doing same, and you are still looking to suggest the installer did something?

Im shocked he is even entertaining this and willing to pay for an Inspector.

its a manufacturing issue( yes people this can happen to you!)..next time you take an estimate, check the numbers online and think you are slick and buy on your own, remember this post here..
and heed the warning of the guy who tells you, I supply my own materials because i know they are problem free.

( Im sorry, were you looking to be coddled? afterall, you did so much homework on the computer).

Here is the deal..the manufacturer will offer you new materials..( if you are lucky)
2) you will have to pay the same or different installer to remove and install new materials from the manufacturer who sent you defective materials the first time...hmmmm..pretty sticky situation...
3). you can spend more hours online trying to figure out how you are going to sue the pants off everyone involved, including the computer manufacturer and google for placing this online retailer at the top of the list.

or you can wrtie this off to a learning experience and let the pros do their job.

James TRD thank you for your reply, but some of your thoughts confuse me.
Firstly the product purchased was not Triangulo or BR111. The product I purchased was more expensive than the engineered hardwood flooring found at Lowes, Home Depot, Lumber Liquidators (other than Bellawood); it was not the low bid material and was not inexpensive material. The installer was having trouble in doing the staircase so I had two staircase experts that do nothing but staircases come in. While these people were in the house we asked them to examine the hardwood flooring (both had previous hardwood flooring installation experience). Both these people said that the installer did a poor job, and the one with 25years of hardwood flooring installation experience before concentrating on staircases stated outright that he thought the installer did not know what he was doing. These people had no axe to grind. One thought the issues I was having was installer related and one did not.

You appear to think it is unwise to buy materials yourself, and also unwise to buy materials from the installer; what are you suggesting one do?

Lastly are you suggesting that consumers do not educate themselves and do any research and simply pick an installer out of the phonebook and hope that they do a good job?

Parrot Boy,

BR111 and Triangulo are also "high end" and suffered significant quality control with some of their products..in particular..their engineered products.

the problem you are having is NOTinstaller related ok? I dont even need to be there.

what you have is Capt Do Good on site feeding his own ego.

why is the same problem happeing to unused materials? i have seen this problem before. and guess what? the owner bought te materials themselves.

I DID suggest you purchase from your installer..you would not be in this mess..now you have to play ring leader..had hyou purchased form you installer, it would be clear where the problem lies..he supplied it, he did the install..pretty easy argument..now you ave to referee between the Manufacturer blaming installer and installer blaming product.

there is really not a helluva alot an installer can do to cause delamination,whether finish or actual wear layer.

Bottomline i am on installers side..its a product issue..

3 questions..
is it all over slab?
( unclear although you indicate only down is..)

is there radiant heat?

who is manufacturer?

these questions really are not that significant..but i am curious...

Will James TRD: If I had bought the wood from the installer, and this same issue had occured, I would have less recourse than I do currrently. Although the installer advertises that he is insured and bonded, he actually only has a bond for $5,000.00 not even half of the cost of the wood. At least having bought the wood from a retailer using a CC I have the option of disputing the charge if I have evidence that there is a manufacturing issue. I would once again stress that other than hairline cracks, the un used woood has not shown any delamination or cupping. If it is a manufacturing issue, then I would expect unused wood would also show these issues.

The second level flooring is over wood subfloor, and most of the problems are over the area that the installer supposedly fixed areas of uneveness. The first floor flooring is over concrete slab. There is no radiant heating. The manufacturer is Vanier.

To give you further input, when I spoke to the independent certified inspector, he asked who the installer was. When I said the name he said ummm... in a way that did not convey a positive impression. My conclusion was supported when my installer was informed who the inspector I hired would be he called me to tell me he thought the inspector was getting some sort of payoff to almost always give an opinion in favor of the manufacturer (I have no idea how he could possibly know this). The installer actually said that he would prefer that the inspector hired by the manufacturer do the inspection than the inspector I had hired directly. Wouldnt that make you wonder about the installers competence?

OK delamination is not an installation issue, period. The cupping might be.

What was your rh in the house during acclimation and what is it now? It could be a dry cupping issue. Has your flooring ever been subjected to low relative humidity? If it has that can exacerbate the delamination, cause cracking, splits and cupping, but delam is always manufacturing.

Poor installation techniques do not make a manufacturing issue.

I have not a clue what the relative humidity is in the house. The house is located in a climate that is very dry, and once again, the HVAC had been set at between 78-82 during the 12 days the wood was placed in the house prior to installation. Assuming that over the area of approximately 800 square feet that most of these issues are located, there are 5 or six pieces with clear delamination (in addition to many hairline cracks and cupping), is this something that the installers in the forum believes should require the manufacturer to pay for replacement?

I did not see any notice or requirement in the manufacturers warranty requiring a certain humidity in the house prior to installation. Is this something that must be checked in addition to proper acclimation?

Here is the link to their installation guide. They do talk about both RH of the house and moisture content of the wood as well as the subfloor. Did the installer do any testing and is there any documentation? Can't say who's fault some or all of the problems are, but since you supplied the material it is up to you to figure it all out. If you bought it from the installer or a local retailer they would be the one fighting for you. I just installed a large floor that a customer supplied and the milling was awful I installed it according to the rules but since they supplied the material I am not responsible for the quality of the product, I wouldn't put in obvious defective boards but the milling is a different story. The bought the material about a year ago so they couldn't even return it.


http://www.builddirect.com/pdf/Engineer ... -Cosmo.pdf

the cracks are called "checking" and it is all manufacturing related..period.
nothing the installer can do will cause that short of installing it in a puddle..

delamination, checking, cupping is all due the wrong expansion rates of the top wear layer to the bonding of the "plies" underneath..all expanding at different rates causing the checking in top layer..it is manufacturer error and your inspector is a fool to suggest otherwise...tell him I said so..

hell..have him sign in so we can bump heads a little..=)

manufacturer will not "pay" anything..they will resupply the job..(lucky you)

Assuming that the manufacturer and the inspector agree with your views James TRD and "resupplies" the job, that would still leave me with the cost and hassle of tearing up the current defective material and reinstalling the new material (maybe additional approximate 15K?) and I would be very unhappy. Basically paying additional 15K for their error. That would include having the painter come back to retouch the baseboards walls, etc. Yes this may be legally what they are obligated to do (assuming once again that they do agree there is a manufacturing problem) but not the fair or right thing to do (IMHO).

I would then give my whole horror story on whatever review site/forum I can find for their product.

I really dispise this statement many manufacturers put in their literature;



Many installers do not have a degree in wood science and should not be expected to grade wood or see defects that can't be seen to the nakedeye. Many defects like checking are already there and only surface if the rh fluctuates wildly. How do we as installers know it was even properly stored before it hits the site?

If you bought the flooring from an online vendor then they are responsible to have it inspected and provide more wood. Did they buy it and store it, is they're warehouse properly heated, cooled and humidified?

Parrotboy,

I feel your pain..and I understand..

I am putting this strait now..the manufacturers warranty in implied and stated in their literature..thats is what you legally get..no court of law will go against it as it is an agreement when you purchase.

2) this is why when you are looking to get a job done, let the pro handle it all..supply, labor,delivery etc..
then it will be on him.
sure the material issue can occur, but it will be up t him to resolve..he will then get new material and offer something on his end in labor..

botomline is the internet created a bunch of monsters..people who think they are slick, can get things cheaper,
save money..stiff the contractor of an honest mark up and living..

just use google...pucnh in"how mch should hardwood installation cost?"

and all the answers..then peole shop..and shopand shop..because the prices are not lining up with what they read..therefore they are gettig ripped off.

they finally get the guy at the price they want off craigslist,the materials significantly discounted, no tax, free shipping etc.

wow this is great..i saved a fortune!!!!!!those guys were out of their mind...

well parrotboy, not saying this is you,(but sounds it)....how much did you save now?;)

chalk it up to learning lesson.

now you perpetuate by going on a forum to find out "whose fault"...and of course our answers are gospel;)

not so easy contracting a job now is it? now you know why we make the big bucks!...(lol..thats a joke)

JamesTRD: I paid more initially for the wood and installation than I would have with EITHER of the installers wood. This was not about getting the cheapest price, which you keep implying. Once again I hope you are not suggesting that people just blindly pick an installer out of the phone book and not do any research on the installer as well as the wood. I did research on both, checked reviews of both. I actually chose the wood that was more expensive than that offered by the installers because it had a thicker wear layer, had an excellent aluminum oxide finish, had microbevels on on four edges, and had recently good reviews. When I inquired about the specifics on the wood product offered by the installers, they could not even answer the questions on all of the features I mentioned. Further just because an installer supplies the wood, does not mean i would not have had exactly the same problem.

No offense, and I understand your position, but to some extent it seems that you are angry that online or outside retailers are taking away the "honest markup" on the wood products, which may color your outlook on this. In my line of work (medical care) it is illegal for me to mark up any material or medications for patients; I would be thrown into jail for doing this.

If you are correct that delamination and cracks are manufacturing errors, period, then I have nothing to worry about since in the worst case scenario, as long as i can get an independent certified inspector to agree with this, I can contest the credit card charge for the wood, and dont need the manufacturer to refund my money. I think that the manufacturer realizes that, so by doing what they should do (paying for tear up, repair and replacement) as opposed to what they are legally bound to do, they will get a satisfied customer as opposed to someone that is going to flame them terribly in the review sites, and scare aware future customers.

I've been reading about you Vanier flooring. Fist problem is It's made in China. Only available through Build direct which probably means they get it from any number of mills and throw it in their boxes. I feel you didn't acclimate properly, running the HVAC at 78-80 probably dried the heck out of it which could be causing some of the problems. You talk about their good reviews, but there are also a few pretty poor reviews of the product. As far as comparing it to HD, Lowes, or LL is like comparing grade D movies. I don't know why people go there instead of retail flooring stores that have known brands and sales people that acually know what they are talking about. Most of the products in the box stores not just flooring are made at a lower quality to meet there price structure.