I recently bought a 1969 tri-level in Colorado. Before moving in, I had a large portion of it remodeled and now I'm encountering some significant problems that are wearing me down and I desperately need advice.

First, let me explain the two parts of the house in question and the work that I've had done:

==BACKGROUND==

--Basement--
The basement is about 500-600sqft and includes the mech room. It was finished when I bought it, with dark wood paneling on 2x2 framing and no insulation and the floor was half tile and half carpet. The ceiling was just drop-down acoustic tile like in a commercial office setting.

I had the basement gutted. I had standard 2x4 framing with insulation and drywall. I had the ceiling drywalled and recessed lighting installed. I had Dricore (http://dricore.com) installed for the flooring. The concrete is poured concrete; not cinder blocks, etc.

--Family Room--
The next floor up is the family room. It is sublevel. Concrete foundation underground up to the base of the window frames. From the windows upward it is framed. Like the basement, it was uninsulated and covered with dark wood paneling. The floors were, again, half tile and half carpet.

I had the walls insulated and done with drywall. I had a hardwood floor (3/4" #1 Oak) installed.

At the back of the family room is a door to the outside, which opens to a stairwell. It originally just had a three foot drain. The previous owners said it constantly flooded and once flooded into the house. Their solution was to caulk the door and never open it.

The first thing I did was tear up the stair-well and install a sump-pump under it that fed to a new french drain that I installed going around the foundation in that corner. It no longer has any water issue in that stairwell.

==THE PROBLEM==

Two months after the hardwood floor was installed, I woke up to find it had buckled. That is, along the external wall and then along an internal wall, the floor had separated underneath and raised to form a hump at least 6" high and the entire length of the floor, in both areas. Along the entire floor, you could feel the edge (going in one direction) of every plank lifting if you ran your hand across the floor.

My contract had the guy he hired for the floors come look at it. He said it was definitely a water problem. A lot of water. He did not confirm what he thought could have caused it. A few days later, he came back with a guy from his flooring supplier. I think the guy might have been from Bruce, but I'm not positive. He looked around and concluded the same - a serious moisture problem. Again, no definitive "you have a leak" or "it's concrete moisture" or "it's the atmosphere". When he noticed we had an evaporative cooler running upstairs, he did seem very interested in that and said he felt that was probably what did it. When he measured humidity in the floor with a hygrometer, it was very high. He also commented that "now you have a floating floor". Presumably, meaning that the entire floor seemed to have separated from where it was attached, even where it hadn't raised into humps.

My flooring guy came back a couple days later and spent two days with his guys tearing out the floor and cleaning the adhesive off. He said that he and the other flooring guy had come up with the best suggestion they could provide, which is to use five-ply oak Bruce Turlington Tongue & Lock engineered hardwood flooring on top of a foam pad.

They've been pushing me ever since to have them come get the work done, because they want to get it solved and over with. They said they're trying to work with me on a very good deal because they feel so bad about it, so I partially feel compelled to hurry up and let them do it while I can get a "good deal". (The floor originally cost $5,000 for about 450sqft and they're going to charge me another $2,600 for tearing it out again, cleaning the surface, and then putting in an engineered wood floor).

--How They Installed The Hardwood Floor--

[0] Adhesive glue was trawled onto the slab concrete.
[1] The hardwood was put on top of that.


--More Background--

Now, I should point out that I did some research before installing the hardwood floor in the first place. On many occasions, I spoke with my contractor and expressed my worries regarding moisture and installing a real hardwood floor below-grade. He assured me that he didn't think there was a problem. I asked him to specifically discuss it with his flooring guy, to be sure. I told them that my understanding was below-ground concrete foundations would pass moisture into the house, no matter what, and that I needed to patch any cracks and gouges, then cover the floor and a couple feet (or all the way) up the concrete wall with some type of roll-on water sealant and then cover it with a felt or other type of vapor barrier, then a plywood subfloor, onto which we would then nail the hardwood floor into.

I was assured that it was not necessary. They install plenty of below-grade real hardwood floors on concrete all year round in residential and commercial environments and have never had any sort of a moisture problem and that I didn't need to be so concerned about it. Further, I was told that the adhesive glue they use was actually a moisture barrier itself and that the flooring guy had supposedly called his supplier just to verify its application in this condition.

So, assured many times over that my worries were unfounded, they went ahead.

Before moving in, I asked my contractor if I should be worried about the evaporative cooler's humidity causing problems with my floor. I was told not to worry.


==HELP!==

So, three months after moving in, I sit here with no floor on this level and a contractor and flooring guy both trying to coax me to let them get in here and finish up with the floor as soon as possible, using engineered wood on foam pad for another $2,600. On one hand, I want to get this done with, over, and behind me. On the other hand, I don't want to go through all of this again in six months when the same problem happens all over again, because they were wrong about engineered wood or I didn't address the moisture problem.

So, here are my questions:

QUESTION #1: Is this five-ply Bruce Turlington Tongue 7 Lock Oak engineered floor on a foam pad the way to go? What are its moisture limits?

QUESTION #2: How do I identify and address the humidity and moisture? I bought three consumer hygrometers (they're little sensors I set some place in a room and monitor remotely with a display - I have on in my basement, family room, and main room/kitchen. These hygrometers read from 25% to 68% consistently over the last three weeks. Also, while Denver is supposedly a very dry place, I have been looking at the past humidity reports with the weather for the past couple months and they show that we have more often than not been over 40% humidity just in the environment -- and very often above 60% or even 85%. I don't' really see how I can do anything about that - and how is it that in such humidity, everyone else with hardwood on sub-grade floors isn't having this problem this season? I have also placed a plastic trash bag on the concrete and placed a heavy box over it for a week. I just lifted it today and I see no condensation or moisture underneath it. It has not rained in about a month, so would I only expect to see condensation and moisture through the concrete when it has been raining a lot? I'm not sure how i can really identify moisture problems when the concrete is only visible on the floor, but not the walls (because the walls are drywalled).


QUESTION #3: If the problem is the evaporative cooler, how do I address that? Before I moved in, I asked my contractor if I should worry that the cooler will damage the floor and he said not to worry. However, after I reported the damaged floor, the first thing he did was say "well, now, do you have windows open to vent the humidity from the evaporative cooler -- because that'll damage things pretty quickly". Of course, I did not have a lot of windows open to vent - because I was told not to worry (and because I'm from the west coast where I've never even heard of an evaporative cooler before and had no idea you had to open windows to vent it). If you have to open windows in hot weather to vent the humidity of the evaporative cooler, what is the point of running the cooler? Seems counter-productive. At any rate, even with every window on the floor open, it didn't really change the humidity reading very much.

QUESTION #4: Who can help me? The only idea I could think of was calling out a residential structural engineer to inspect my home and offer advise (on this floor and any other concerns). Hopefully it wouldn't be too expensive. I'm not sure how much one would be able to help, though -- since the only thing he could really see is the exposed concrete floor. It's not like he can see my foundation or anything.

QUESTION #5: Should I be concerned about other moisture issues? Even doing away with the flooring, I'm worried that moisture could cause other problems. With the insulation or electrical services or drywall. Not to mention mold. Is there any way I can monitor this beside these hygrometers running and keeping an eye on them occasionally? Having to monitor gauges in every floor and buying and running a dehumidifier and opening and closing windows all the time is starting to sound like a hell of a lot of work. Also, as I understand it, my house is in an area with heavy clay. I understand that may cause even further foundation cracking and shifting problems and that the only way I can address that is to hire someone to drill 2" diameter three foot deep holes every five feet around the entire house, fill them with gravel, run a garden spraying flat hose along the entire foundation and then water my house every week (great, I don't even like watering plants).

Any other help or advice would be appreciated. I've spent so much on this house that I know I will never get my money back, even if the housing market skyrockets -- and it looks like nothing more than continued sinking of cash. I just want to have this done with, so I can focus on my actual work - not a second job worrying about emergencies that I was told wouldn't be a problem to begin with.

*sigh*. Thank you very much for any contribution you can offer. My grandfather was a general contractor who built expensive custom homes for millionaire types. I'm just an engineer in the tech industry who works long hours and thought it was time to buy a home and stop living in an expensive apartment my whole life.

Thank you - regards.

Well that was a long morning read. lol

First of all it is not an approved method to install solid 3/4 right on top of concrete with adhesive unless your talking shorts. However it can and has been done with LOTS of prep work and culling.
Second especially without a moisture blocker. And third double especially NOT below grade ! And forth it is the installer/contractors responsibility to test the slab for moisture using an approved method dictated by the adhesive manufacturer/wood manufacturer or industry standard like a Calcium chloride test or a relative humidity test. Plus have documentation to prove it.

I don't know what adhesive they used but a few of the new ones are put on at a rate about double to the regular install. These adesives claim to be mositure blocker and adhesive all in one due to the thickness of the spread. Sorta like putting down a seperate moisture blocker like Bostik MVP4 and then the adhesive. Me...still not a fan of that for specific reasons.

I would like to know what adhesive it was.

A matt test may not give you the results a real concrete moisture test can. It tells you basically nothing in terms of quantity of MVE coming out of the slab. However moisture rates can change dramitically in a few weeks. Someone should have tested the concrete before and especially after the failure to make certain where this moisture was coming from. I believe you are being dooped by unprofessional people.

As far as the swamp cooler, those baby's pump out lots of water. Did they acclimate when the swamp was running? Did they ask what type of heating and cooling you use? I am reluctant to install regular solid fastened down when people have this type of cooler. It is used a lot out here and even in the old houses that have solid naildown floors but it is mostly all quartersawn that is more stable.

I would call a construction attorney, get a refund and find someone else to do your floors.

Yeah, I am really kicking myself right now. I'm just a tech guy and I have almost no DIY experience or homeowner experience. I try to do as much research as I can online, but when it comes down to it I have to accept that a professional likely knows more than I do. However, I was aware of every single concern, here -- and each concern was brushed off by the professionals. I knew that sub-grade was never a place you should put real hardwood. And that if you do use hardwood, you need to take great care in treating it. I also thought a sub-flooring was a necessity.

I don't believe they tested or prepared for anything. My contractor demo'd and cleaned the floor. Then his flooring guy brought the flooring in to sit for two or three days and then troweled down a bunch of thick adhesive glue and stuck the oak on top of that. Finished in an afternoon. Came back later to do the finish work on the surface and that was it.




I'm not sure what the adhesive was, but I do know that I was on-site for a few moments the day they were doing the floor and I overheard the flooring guy complain to my contractor that he needed a little more money, because he had only factored in one bucket of adhesive glue and the project really needed two of them. My contractor told the flooring guy it was his (flooring guy's) job to know what materials he needs ahead of time and quote appropriately and he wasn't going to give him anything more. So, for all I know, he either ate the cost and put on what was required or just used less than was needed, because he didn't want to buy more.

But as you say, chances are that they didn't use a glue that was any sort of moisture barrier. In fact, when the guy from Bruce was out there inspecting with us, he said it may have been moisture from the concrete. I asked, "I was told the adhesive worked as a moisture barrier, so how could the water have caused it to separate from the wood?" to which he said it wasn't a moisture barrier. *sigh*.




My understanding is that a proper moisture analysis and test takes at least a couple of days to conduct, so I can guarantee that none was done. I'm 99% certain that the floor guy came over, dropped of the flooring, came back a couple days later, slopped down the glue and the floor on top of it and left.

I'm not actually sure how to find a moisture testing guy, but I'm looking for one. Before I have anything done on this floor after this, I need to know the source of the moisture. if it's simply natural moisture coming through concrete like any other floor, then fine. But if there is a bigger issue here and there is another source of water (foundation problem, something from a roof or chimney, etc) then I absolutely have to detect that before I put anything else down - wood or not.

My contractor admits he doesn't know much about hardwood floors, so he relies on his flooring guy who he has now used at several jobs other than mine. I don't know if the flooring guy is intentionally trying to skim on the proper process that is needed or if he's just doing these sort of "side jobs" and so when left to his own devices, doesn't know the whole picture.. Or... something. Anyway, I think I'm definitely done using this flooring guy and am not going to allow them to finish it up with a second job.



I was the one asking all the questions. Nobody asked me anything at any point. I was actually out of town while they were doing most of my remodel, but they knew how to reach me directly. They felt it was a straight forward "done this a million times" process, but clearly they weren't taking into account the sub-grade location conditions. *sigh*

This was back in May, so the swamp cooler wasn't even uncovered and setup for the season, yet. We began to use the swamp cooler about three weeks after the installation and the floor buckled about six weeks after *that*. As I mention, much of the rest of the house (the main floor and the upstairs hallway) are also hardwood, but they are standard floors; not on concrete or below ground. The flooring guy also seemed to indicate that something had happened to those floors, too, though. He felt that the humidity in the air probably caused problems with all the hardwood in my entire house. I don't know -- the hardwood everywhere else seems fine to me. I mean, if you run your hand along the floor, you can feel the edges of the planks, but . . . I don't know that it's anything unusual. Is a hardwood floor supposed to be absolutely completely smooth? (Hell if I know, the closest thing to hardwood I've ever lived on was the parkay floor my grandfather installed in his house in the 80s).




I was considering this, but for $4,500-$5,000, I'm not sure if I'd come out ahead after involving an attorney and any court fees and the time investment, etc. And on top of that, I did not have any paperwork involved other than invoices from my contractor (which included the flooring on the invoice). I suppose there would normally be all sorts of forms and documents and contracts to be signed, but again . . . I'm new to all of this so at the time, I had no idea what to expect or what should be happening.

I had been considering going with an engineered wood floor, here -- but after talking to my coworker and his wife (an award winning designer), they've convinced me that ANY type of wood flooring on a sub-grade slab surface is just a BAD idea. Doubly so if there are any additional moisture concerns. So I think I'm looking at possibly striking the entire idea and considering other flooring solutions.

I went with wood, because I hate carpet and tile seems too cold and uncomfortable. Especially for a family room with a fire place that should be relaxing. My friend is advising cork, since he used that in his very expensive and beautiful home. Says it has nearly no moisture concerns and is pretty cheap to buy and have installed.

Whatever I do, I think I must identify the moisture concerns and foundation concerns, first. As you say _ I should find someone to do a moisture test on the concrete. So I'll do that. Then perhaps a structural engineer or something similar to investigate the foundation and advise me of anything I should address? If I need to put off redoing this floor for six months while I monitor the floor for any weather-caused problems, I can do that. I'm really not even using the family room right now. And I suspect that taking it slow is the smart idea, right now. Especially if I'm already going to be out the $5k investment I made the first time around.

Anyway, thank you VERY much for your consideration and assistance, here. The problem with so much of this stuff is that you don't know what you don't know. And even if you do know that there's stuff you don't know, even finding the right guy to help you with what you don't know is difficult to impossible. I mean, until now, I'd never have even thought of hiring a moisture tester or a structural engineer or anything. Gaaah.

They would have to pay attorney's fees as well. Any construction attorney worth his salt would drool over this case. It's a slam dunk. The contractor should have documented and supplied you with all necessary proof. Or have it in their possession. Besides that..not sure about CO but here we are on the hook for two years after the install. Better check ou that adhesive if you can. Bruce offers a warranty if you use their product with their wood. If you can get them (the Bruce rep) to put on paper it was used improperly then you case is solid as a rock. Course I bet the attorney could get the rep to write a letter.





You were right on. However engineered wood floors are installed all day every day below grade and is approved by all the manufacturers and industry pro's and org's. Course I would also use a troweled on moisture blocker like MVP4 with a Bostik adhesive. That said a moisture test is needed before hand to insure the rates are not exceeding the starting out rate. see website page for more info:

http://www.tucsonazflooring.com/services.html

Monitoring your slabs moisture is a great idea if you want to know how it reacts through the seasons. You can use the Wagner Rapid Rh test shown on the page I linked to. Scroll down, links provided.

Finding a contractor well versed in this testing should not be that difficult. But lots of places out here just throw down the moisture blocker and cross their fingers. They don't want to lose a job because the next guy says it is unnecessary and blow the bid. There are also some new adhesives that when set are 100% water proof like the CX-1000.

My concern with applying a moisture barrier or blocker is that it seems I would need to cover the floor, the joints between floor and wall, and then the concrete wall itself. Is that correct? I mean, if I only did the floor, then moisture would come in through the walls and find its way to the floor, where it would be trapped inside, because of the moisture barrier on the floor, right?

And, since the walls are already drywalled and finished, covering the concrete vertical foundation would probably be impossible.

There also seems to be some contention between "protecting it inside" versus "protecting it outside" and "positive/negative hydrostatic pressure". Then again, I may be starting to read into subjects well beyond my general comprehension.

I am planning to hire some kids over the next year or so to dig up a trench around as much of my foundation as possible. About three feet deep. Fill with gravel and a french drain, pulling the water from the foundation and way from the house. If I do that, then I might as well also have the foundation patched where needed and then papered and tarred (though I also understand that might be something that does not have long-term lasting effects, beyond a few years?).

Anyway, I do have an action plan at this point, which is:

+ Get my cash back from the flooring guy (he was given a certain amount to demo his ruined floor and haul it away, then begin work on the new floor). I suspect he'd be willing to return the $600-$700 extra simply to be done with it and have me out of his hair.

+ Cut my losses. $4.5k-$5k investment in last work sucks, but the time and expense involved to recover whatever amount I might possibly be awarded might not be worth it. Eat it as an expensive lesson that I should trust my instincts, even if it beings being overly cautious and doing more work, next time. It would have saved my ass, here.

+ Hire moisture testing guy. I guess I could do it myself if I invested in the equipment, but a real expert with experience would be of value here.

+ Maybe have a foundation guy of some sort give my home a once-over.

+ Consider engineered wood or cork over floating subfloor with good moisture barrier. Perhaps other solutions, if they arise.

+ Not rush into it. Cold snowy rainy weather is due our way in the next couple months, so I can observe what's up.


In the meantime, I'm also wondering how useful general home use humidity testers are? Is the information I have from a device like the one linked here worth anything? I suspect that it's possible the room humidity could be 30% and the concrete/floor humidity could be far higher, which renders any data I could get from one of these fairly useless.

http://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-TM005X- ... B000EX83RU

Also, as I mentioned, my basement seems to be fine - though it is actually about six feet lower than the slab concrete where the hardwood floor was installed. I've drywalled with proper framing the entire room and installed varnished Dricore on the concrete floor. The only unfloored area is the mech room where the boiler and water heater are (as well as a drain). I'm even sleeping in here, because it's a mix of my home office, entertainment center and rec-room (couch, bed, everything in between). I don't think I'll need to worry about my health or anything down here, but I suspect I should probably have any moisture testing I do upstairs be down done here, too (though he'd only have access to the mech room since there is already flooring installed everywhere else).


Anyway, thank you again for your gracious informative responses. You have no idea how valuable getting knowledgeable input on something like this is. I feel exactly as I'm sure all of my family and friends do when they come to me with technology questions, because "he's the computer guy". It's a baffling world out there when you don't even know what you don't know that you should know.

Hope you are enjoying the holiday and thank you for all the time you spend helping people here (I have read many a reply from you to other lost souls).

Man, err dude, there's alot of jacked up retailer/contractors and installers out there who wish there were more people like you to prey on. Who would be happy to just get 10% back on a failed investment. Sorta like the investment bankers making a buck off ya when you stock tanks but worse because they should know what will happen. An investment banker don't know what will happen at all, it's a crap shoot.. lol

Not that I enjoy putting the hurts on someone financially but in reality.....those type people make us all look bad. Take your relatives who think any kinda wood is bad on concrete. I hear that alot out here...it's too dry they say. Daaaaa makes me want to take my glove off and slap someone