Lorie,

It is not "defensiveness" but frustration. I cannot count how many times I have to argue with general contractors about the science of installing wood flooring. Yet, because so many are either stubborn or prideful, refuse to listen to my "expert" opinion and instead, choose to believe what suits them. There is a laundry list of items we pros should check for before we have the flooring delivered. I know I do. If all those items are not done and checked for proper parameters, then any number of issues can happen. We already KNOW the subfloor MC was out of spec PRIOR to installation and during installation. And it still was months afterwards. That alone is enough to cause major issues with your particular job. If you do not want these types of problems to happen again, then I suggest getting an installer who actually knows what they are doing. Once you hire a sub, it becomes their job to ensure a proper installation. There is no way you are going to learn everything you need to know about proper wood floor installation by asking some questions on a message board. I find that attitude somewhat demeaning to expert wood flooring contractors, who have spent many years learning their trade. But you think you can get some advice on how to "make sure it doesn't happen again." My advice, hire a better flooring contractor.

As to how to repair your problem floor. The BEST remedy is to remove all the wood without damaging the tongues or grooves. Throw away any damaged wood and get replacements for it. Then, set up humidistats throughout the installation to monitor RH. Make sure the HVAC is set to normal living conditions, about 72 to 75 degress for this time of year. The humidistats should read around 40 to 50 % most of the time. With a quality moisture meter, check the subfloor moisture content in numerous locations throughout the installation areas. Double check RH under the house as well with a humidistat. Check the MC of all the flooring. With a 40 to 50% RH, the flooring should read between 7 to 8% MC. The subfloor should be no more than 10% and super clean and flat. I usually sand my wood subfloors with my buffer and hard disc and 60 grit prior to gluing down wood. Once all these conditions are ideal, then you are ready to begin installing. If you do not want the hickory to move or make any noise, then glue it down and staple as well. I would use SIKA T-35 in the sausages running 1/4" beads every 5 to 6" across the backs of the boards. Then staple as well but not so much it's breaking tongues. You could use less staples because the adhesive is doing the work. The stapler will break tongues if the pressure is too high. If done correctly, you should have a solid, quiet installation. You could go with a full trowel adhesive application instead if the installer prefers that with a GOOD urethane floor adhesive.

One last bit of advice. Don't be the cocky general contractor. You know how many quality installers refuse to work for GC's? Many. Why? Because GC's can be a big PITA to work with. So, you are a guest here. Most of us have been here for years. Please leave your GC attitude and swagger at the door.

I find it hard to believe that a GC with such renowned custom homes has never heard of having to get the MC of the subfloor close to the hardwood being installed. Never even questioning the installer before hand. And in such an area where hardwood floors are so common.

Not calling you a liar but thats whats hard to swallow.

Gary - I appreciate your expounded response as to the best solution. (I hope you realize that I've been sharing the information I learn from this forum with my sub. I guess he's still in the process of learning his trade - the process you mentioned above.)

As you (and I) have realized, my installer did not seem to know what he's doing on this particular job. As I stated in earlier responses, I've used this same installer on 6+ other jobs without any issues. (Previous Brazilian cherry installations - this is the first hickory install.) I don't plan to hire him on our future hardwood floor installations.

I'm sorry that you've misconstrued my questions and desire to learn more as a "GC attitude and swagger". I believe there is a science to installing the wood floors. (Just as an fyi - I actually have a science degree - so I appreciate the "science" of all things, hence my desire to understand the issue further.) You are criticizing me for wanting to learn more about the installation process yet how else am I going to be able to identify if the sub I hire is doing the job properly? (Up to now I have given my installer carte blanche and trusted him explicitly.) How will I know if I'm hiring "a better flooring contractor" as you've suggested I do. I have not found any particular accreditation credentials on the "panelists" bios for this forum so I've surmised that there is no formal accreditation. Is this correct? How do I know if I'm hiring someone who is actually qualified to perform my installs? (FYI - I went to the NWFA website and used the "Find a Professional" link ... I couldn't find you listed there so I'm guessing this isn't the best way to find a qualified installer.) Is there a science to finding a good installer? Or is it trial and error - as I'm experiencing?

If you're having difficulty working with a lot of GCs then maybe it's you who should check your attitude. Thanks for the lively exchange.

I trust my subs and don't believe I need to babysit them. I trust each and every one of my subs - until they prove that they can't be trusted. Are you suggesting that I learn their trade?

Let's examine Lori's responses and you all decide if she ( I assume you are a lady ) fits the typical GC profile.

First, she states

She thinks it's the expansion "gap", then ask what could be the problem?

She then received multiple responses as to the possibilities but here was the first true evidence


She confirms what everyone has said. And finally seems to get it.


Here's where she goes "GC" on us and second guesses all the expert opinions she has already received in favor of her own "research".


So now, she in convinced in something other than what she was convinced before in. What has changed? Her opinion of her ability to find the truth of the matter despite all the expert opinions she has already received.

Then in this later post, we get another "informed opinion" from this GC, who trusts her own opinion rather than other experts.




A reasonable question that we at Hardwood Installer have have addressed many times before. We USED to recommend NWFA installers, until it became obvious that all it took to become an NWFA installer was pay the $300 annual membership fee and you were a member ( not "certified" installer ) However, the NWFA has left many members in the dust.They promised we would get recommendations that never happened and for some of us, Perry included, we got our certifications and and diplomas and did not see any further point in being members, since the NWFA was doing nothing for us. Hiring an NWFA member only ensures you get someone who paid $300.00 to be a member. The best way to hire a flooring contractor ( or any good sub ) is by referrals. You know that. If your state has licensing requirements, like mine does, of course you want your sub licensed. Check out their references, talk to previous customers, ask them how they go about their job in an interview, ask about experience. The same way you would find a good finish carpenter.

And finally, our "guest" leaves us with this bit of wisdom.


Well, actually, I never said it was me that refused to work for GC's. I said many fine reputable flooring contractors don't. I'm a member of Bill Price's Floormasters site where it is all professional flooring installers and finishers from all over the country and other parts of the world, like Ireland, Canada, Australia, England, etc. But most members are from the USA. Without question, a majority of members either refuse or very much dislike working for GC's. The reasons are various but some are GC's are pushy, cheap, don't pay on time, control freaks, demanding, inconsiderate, etc. These are a few complaints I have heard and I would echo. I've been contracting and installing 30 years now. How about you? What wealth of experience do you have to draw upon? That degree in science in what field?
You are welcome to come here and ask questions. We have helped literally 100's of people with their floor issues. From experienced to laymen. The posters here give freely of their time and experience. What is not appreciated is someone who doesn't appreciate it or wants to argue with us over our professional opinions. Don't like what you hear? Fine, then go do whatever it is you want to do. But don't argue with us over what we know. And believe it or not, that's what you've been doing and as moderator, I'm through with it. You have your professional opinions from this forum. We have helped all we can. Good Luck and move on.

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