I hired a licensed hardwood floor contractor. The same one who has laid the hardwoods for the previous 6+ houses. Typically we use brazilian cherry and use a pattern of 2", 3" and 4" boards. Same subfloor system has been used in the previous installs as well.

I guess it's been a learning process for me. At this point the installer is standing behind his work ... I'm just trying to solve the problem to ensure I don't encounter this problem in the future.

Thanks.

Yeah but is it working properly.....is it large enough to handle the space....? Exactly when did you start using it...when the floor started popping?

For me I neve ever take anyones word for anything when I am performing an inspection so why would I do it now?

Yes, the dehumidifier is working properly. The basement is amazingly dry. I need to place a hygrometer down there but based on the human barometer, it feels much more comfortable in the basement than the other two floors (from a humidity perspective) ... especially now that we're into the warm and humid summer months in North Carolina. And yes, we started using the dehumidifier when the floors started popping.

By the way, the floors on the top level are still popping. Nothing has been pulled up or glued on that floor ... yet. Both of the upper floors are climate controlled. We actually have 3 heat pumps/AC units with a total of 4 zones. The only common denominators between the first and second floors are the subfloor, staples and the hickory. (No basement under the second floor.)

Look, I've installed solid hickory, with a Bostitch M111 FS stapler using 2" staples over 3/4" OSB. I did not have problems. It's not the hickory per se, or the staples or the OSB. It's that no one moisture tested the subfloor prior to installing the wood flooring. All solid plank is to be within 2% MC of the subfloor. So, if the plank was at 8% MC, then the subfloor needed to be at no more than 10%, which is the normal MC of subfloors that are dry and properly climate controlled. That, more than anything, was and is the problem. WHY? Because when the dry flooring was installed over the wet subfloor, it picked up moisture and expanded. So much so that it stressed the fasteners and maybe even caused some compression set. Now, after things are slowly drying out, the wood is shrinking back to it's normal size. And it's talking to you while it's doing that. It's true that perhaps some tongue breakage occurred during installation, and that could be a contributing factor, it is not the sole cause. Also, you did not mention if 15 lb. asphalt saturated felt paper was laid over the subfloor prior to installing the hickory flooring. That is a requirement as well. Some think it is un-necessary. Smart installers follow the guidelines. Based on the info you have provided, it is my opinion the main cause is a damp subfloor. Personally, depending on what was paid for the hickory flooring, it maybe less hassle and long term, a better floor, just to rip out the old floor and install a new one the correct way this time.

How about describing the joist system ..... trusses, engineered joists, SYP dimensional joist, etc. Spacing, span , and also..... was the Hickory installed perpendicular?

When you are checking the MC of the subfloor one should check the top and bottom readings to get a true assessment. Many moisture meters have to species corrected to give an accurate reading for OSB, AdvanTech and pine plywood. Of the three mentioned, all three use a different species correction. That's very important when you are trying to get within 2%.

Life is so complicated ain't it .....

Yeah Jerry, Flexing of the subfloor system could also contribute to the problem. But here is an earlier post and what I think is still the major contributor.



The hickory plank should be within 2%, not the 4% she has stated. That is for narrow strip flooring and a more stable species. So, she had a subfloor at 14% MC and an unstable wood floor at 6% MC. And that was measured way after the problems began. Who knows what the MC of the subfloor was at the time of installation? Higher, I am sure. Is it any wonder the flooring is talking to them?

The truss system is engineered (TJI) - 14" (or 16") OC. The hickory was installed perpendicular to the trusses. I did check the top and bottom of the subfloor for the moisture content. There is insulation installed under the floor - I pulled it back in several spots and checked ... the MC was pretty much the same above as below. When I submitted the first entry I had NOT adjusted the readings for the wood species. I was using the Delmhorst J-4 moisture meter. Based on what I could find, the Delmhorst says that it gives a relative reading for the subfloor but needs to be adjusted for the wood species. So, the hickory readings should have been slightly higher than my original post.

I know the subfloor product (Weyerhauser Structurwood Edge Gold) is comprised of wax, resin and wood strips. I believe it's a combination of the 4" planks, staples and subfloor that has caused my problems. Since unfinished hickory is quite susceptible to changes in moisture and the subfloor had more moisture than desired, I don't believe the staples were strong enough to hold the hickory in place as the hickory absorbed some of the subfloor moisture. (There was 15# felt paper installed under the hickory initially.) The hickory also seemed to absorb moisture from the air quite rapidly (we'd have rain one day and the next day the floor would be popping like crazy.) The popping really didn't start until the rainy season began. This could be a factor of the humidity or just a timing issue ... guess I'll never really know.

Thanks for you input.

I did learn after my earlier post that the difference should be 2% on the 4" planks (instead of 4%). The upstairs area is still popping - even though the subfloors and hickory are within 2% of each other. What is the solution? Thanks.

And one more question ... Any recommendations on a moisture meter? As stated earlier, I am the general contractor so I shouldn't have to use a moisture meter on a daily basis. I've seen ones as cheap as $20 or $30 on ebay. Is something like this adequate for my level of use? Input is appreciated. Thanks.

One other "data point" that still bothers me ... if my problems are moisture-related, why aren't I seeing cupping occur? Thanks.

I have heard that Lignomat meters are pretty accurate for the money spent. http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&rh=n%3A ... mat&page=1

Two years ago I picked up a cheap meter at harbor freight and compared its readings with my Delmhorst BD-2100......... not even close

Lorie, I don't see how the flooring can cup when its been steadily reading 6-7-8% MC.

You say you pulled up some flooring on the first floor, then glued it down and fastened every 4 rows or so? Did you think to stick the bottom side of the flooring to see if it measured the same as the face side?

Yes - I checked the top, bottom and sides of the wood and it was consistent in it's readings (the bottom was NOT higher moisture than the top or sides). (I randomly checked pieces of the wood once it had been pulled up.) This is one of the reasons I started leaning towards thinking it was the combination of the fasteners and the subfloor. As well as the fact that I didn't have any cupping occurring.

Thanks for the information on the moisture meter. I'll check it out.

What you are failing to understand is that the subfloor and the wood flooring need to be within 2% MC of each other PRIOR to installation. Measuring MC after the fact can supply info needed to determine problems. But it doesn't help to mitigate problems. Accurate meter readings should have been taken prior to delivery of the flooring. Delivery should have been delayed until all web trades had completed their work, the subfloor was at normal MC range ( 8 to 10% MC ) and the interior held at a constant 65 to 75 degrees F with an 45 to 50% relative humidity.

You know, you can believe what you want. I am telling you what I believe is the major cause of your problem and you don't want to believe it, instead blaming the wood and the fasteners, instead of those who made the poor decision of delivering and installing the flooring too soon and not metering the house or subfloor. Those that ignore the facts will continue to make the same mistakes.

Gary - I DO understand that the MC should have been no greater than 2% PRIOR to the installation. OBVIOUSLY I trusted my floor guy to take the measurements and ensure he was doing his job properly. Because he didn't, I have had to become involved and I'm trying to ensure this doesn't occur again (as I've stated in previous posts). TRUE, I do not know what the MC difference was before I started taking moisture readings. I'll also tell you that we would not allow the floor guy to begin installation until after we had the heat turned on - and held constant. (I can't confirm the relative humidity but "assume" it was normal since the house was climate controlled.) FYI - The floor guy was pushing to start nailing down before the heat was on. We told him he could rack out some of it, but not nail it. I believe you meant to type "wet" (instead of "web"), and yes, all the "wet" trades were already out of the house prior to the wood installation.

I'm not sure why you are getting so defensive on this topic. I've been soliciting "expert" input. I'm realizing that for each expert there is often a different expert opinion.

Also, I'm trying to move past any "finger-pointing" (because obviously it's the floor guys fault) and I'm trying to find SOLUTIONS... hence, I asked about the solution to the second floor - which is still popping. Is the only solution to tear up the wood and re-install it? Do I use glue to re-install it? Or are the staples adequate?

And just to clarify, you're telling me that you've encountered issues like this in the past and NOT seen any cupping occur? How often do you use staples in conjunction with the 4" hickory and the Weyerhauser Structurwood Edge Gold subfloor?

Thanks.

Thats funny, historically it's the GC pushing. Thats hard to swallow.

I'd rather have it done right than do it over or have an unhappy client. [We build custom homes in an exclusive golf club where we're members so we'll continuously be bumping into our clients in a social setting. Plus, my husband plays golf with them - so it's not worth jeopardizing our reputation.] Wouldn't it be a wonderful world if everyone was focused on doing things the right way????