Hardwood Floor Before or After Kitchen Cabinets?

Jerry Thomas · **Posted:** Sun Mar 23, 2008 4:40 am

By shimming, you mean to set the cabinets up on cleats?

Barquios · **Posted:** Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:59 pm

Basically under the footprint of the cabinet, you would lay 2 sheets of 1/2" OSB. Preferably leaving 1/2" of a smaller footprint to allow for a smaller baseboard to accommodate for the expansion space.

For an island installed after the cabinets you would cut holes in the flooring under the footprint. Then add wood blocks to hold the island up off of the flooring. The blocks would be 1/2" smaller than the holes in the floor. This allows the system to move freely. This might be a better description of how to block up cabinets off of a floating floor.

Jerry Thomas · **Posted:** Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:45 am

That's pretty much the same way I approach it, thanks.

Gary · **Posted:** Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:02 pm

Quote:

Preferably leaving 1/2" of a smaller footprint to allow for a smaller baseboard to accommodate for the expansion space.

Well, the downside to this is rarely do the installers end up setting those base cabs EXACTLY where the plywood/osb panels are. And some less expensive cabs only use 1/2" plywood or p. board sides. So holding back the furring strips/panels wouldn't help at all. No, the preferred method is to either:

1) Install base cabinets first. Shim/fur them up if needed to level or raise over all height. After the flooring install is complete, install the correct trims on the cabinets.

OR

2) Prior to setting the base cabinets, lay them on their backs and install the shims/furring strips to the bottoms on the cabs. And easy way would be to glue and screw 3/4" plywood strips which extend about 1" or so beyond the bottoms of the cabinet's case. Attach these to the inside of the case. Then you would have a built-in furring strinp, set back the thickness of the case, 1" off the floor, and you do not have to concern your self with aligning it to some panel already installed on the subfloor. Now, isn't that ingenius?

Jerry Thomas · **Posted:** Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:59 am

I hear you, but, I have not had any problems using cleats. I work with several cabinet shops and usually we talk first and their guys will set the cabinets up for me. When it's an outfit I don't have any dealings with, I will put the cleats down myself beforehand.... If they stick out somewhere I simply cut them flush when i get there to install the flooring.

The main thing is just don't run a floating floor underneath base cabinets where shimming will lock the floor down.

Gary · **Posted:** Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:11 pm

Quote:

The main thing is just don't run a floating floor underneath base cabinets where shimming will lock the floor down.

The most important thing when installing a floater. Plus, having the expansion gap at the perimeter.

jabwoodworks · **Posted:** Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:49 am

I read every word of that

I think I am going to pretend that Gary did not just prove why the most inconvenient, time consuming and skill testing way to install a kitchen/ powder rm is the right way.

Well, I used to hate cutting vents tight, now I thrive at the opportunity.

J

johnwill · **Joined:** Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:34 am **Posts:** 1

mrafalek · **Posted:** Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:00 pm

Don't install the floor under the cabinets this is the right way.
Depending on the project people decide to do differently and it might work as well. If the clients doesn have a general contractor she or him will listen to whomever is more perswaiding. Floor guy :"hey it will be very much cheaper if I do it before" For a floor contractor it is really easier. You don't have to glue it under the cabinets, you don't have to nail i, and sanding under the cabinnets to do the great job takes time.So if there is client that wants to safe as much money as spossible then yes he will listen to floor guy.
Cabinet maker: " This will cost you extra to protect the floor "
So it all depends on the budget of the client and planning, sometimes saving money makes you pay for it in the future.

I have done high end unfinished project where we have installed the floor first sanded and finished it with two coats of finish and after a month or two contractor called me up to screen and apply last coat .

Prefinished can very well be installed after the cabinets I think.

jeff burstein · **Joined:** Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:00 pm **Posts:** 629

Just another quick add in. I didn't read every response so if this is a repeat I apologize. I have in the past had the contractor draw layout lines where the cabinets wil be and then I just barely go over that line with my wood.

Gary · **Posted:** Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:19 am

That works fine for a nail down or glue down. I've done that before as well. But not for a floating type of floor. Just to be clear.

jeff burstein · **Joined:** Sun Dec 21, 2008 6:00 pm **Posts:** 629

Yes I should have specified nail down. Floating always goes down after, and hopefully you can get the cabinet guys to leave the toekicks off and use something that actually covers the gap.

RendeCo06 · **Posted:** Wed Apr 15, 2009 10:41 pm

jeff and lynne c wrote:

My wife and I are doing a kitchen remodel. I talked to many different contractors and read articles from several sources on this topic before we made our decision. From everything I've learned, it's strictly a matter of preference. There are pro's and con's to either option-

If you install cabinets then the floor and at some point in the future, you want to change your cabinets or your kitchen layout, you'll have to replace your whole floor or try to find a match for the existing floor, which could be tricky.

If you floor under the cabinets, you'll spend a little more money, because you'll be flooring an area you can't see. (Most builders don't floor under the cabinets for this reason.)

After much thought, we decided to install the floor, then the cabinets. Sure it costs a little more, but for us we felt it was the right thing to do.

Back in 2000 on a new construction project the home owner and builder were tied up over this same scenario. The home owner, at first was reluctant to install before the flooring because of the extra cost involved. Her reasoning was she couldn't fathom the idea of rearranging a new kitchen design that had barely been started! I was able to convince her to lay the floors out before. 8 years later she was glad she did. 2 kids and many holiday and family parties later she decided to add a double oven to accomodate all of the additional cooking she was doing. Adding a double oven required a new island that was about 2.5 ft. smaller in all directions (she picked a whole new design including countertop!). Instead weaving in new boards all we had to do was simply sand the new areas square to the nearest wall and voila! No surgery neccessary!

QualityFloorCo · **Joined:** Sun Sep 06, 2009 12:05 am **Posts:** 44

Gary wrote:

Quote:

but I think the height of the dishwasher under the cabinates would be an issue.

It depends on the cabinets. Most of the remodels I work on have the cabinets custom built. The cabinet maker takes into consideration the finished floor. Even if they were factory stock cabinets, 3/4" plywood could be installed where the cabinets sit to accomadate 3/4" flooring. This is all part of proper kitchen design and planning. As a hardwood flooring installer, it is EASIER for me to lay the floor before the cabinets are installed but NONE of my contractors will do this. There's more to the story than meets the eye. Oftentimes, if the cabs are custom made, the contractor gets a BIG payment once they're installed but he gets nothing having them sitting in the garage or some wharehouse. The sooner he gets them in, the sooner he can get the counters measured. The fabrication for the tops is normally two weeks from measure to install, during that time, the general wants the floors laid because nothing else can be done till the tops are down. It's often about keeping things moving along and work being done on the project. One can certainly lay an unfinished floor first, then install the cabinets and then wait two weeks for the counters to be installed with NO work being done but customers and contractors hate that. Better to immediately install the cabs, measure the tops, lay the floor, then install the tops with no downtime. Once the tops are installed, then sinks, plumbing and electrical hookups can proceed along with appliances. It just gets the project done quicker is all. And for PREFINISHED floors, they most definitely should be done at near the very last or they will get trashed. Anyway, this is the thinking behind installing wood floors after the cabinets. One other issue to consider: REPAIRS. Ever try to remove cupped and buckled T&G wood flooring from UNDER an installed cabinet. Not very easy. Many insurance water damage claims are from leaks in the kitchen. If the floors were under the cabinets, in some instances, they could have to remove their cabinets to remove the water-damaged flooring! :shock:

That is unacceptable for repairs.

Why is it unacceptable? If it's water damage don't you think there might be a moisture problem under the cabinets as well? You can't settle up with the insurance company after the fact...I would say it's unacceptable to repair the damage without pulling the cabinets

Gary · **Posted:** Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:11 am

Quote:

Why is it unacceptable? If it's water damage don't you think there might be a moisture problem under the cabinets as well? You can't settle up with the insurance company after the fact...I would say it's unacceptable to repair the damage without pulling the cabinets

This entire post is about whether an installer should lay flooring under cabinets ( before cabs are installed ) or afterwords. In presenting arguments for both scenarios, it was suggested by me that if an installer install the flooring first, then the cabinets are installed on top of the floors, and a water leak and subsequent damage ensued, then properly removing all the damaged flooring would be difficult. After doing hundreds of kitchen water damage repairs to wood floors, rarely are any cabinets seriously damaged. Nor is the subflooring either. WHY? Because the cabs are installed on shims, feet, hold-offs and similar. The water typically drains down through the subfloor at some point and the cabs are not damaged, but not before soaking the wood flooring. Since subfloors are designed to be allowed to get wet and dry out and still perform fine, they are not usually damaged either. Not enough to warrant removal. So, in most water damage scenarios, all that is needed is to repair the leak, remove the water damaged portion of the floor, thoroughly dry out the subfloor and when fully dry, re-install new flooring.

If an installer were to install the hardwood UNDER the cabinets and that wood got wet, it would be a wet sandwich, creating the possibility of mold growth that the repair person could not get to without removing the cabinets and counters. I don't know about you but here, the custom build kitchens run into 6 figures. What is unacceptable is to create a problem that did not need to be created ( ei: install flooring under the cabinets ). Of course, if a restoration company stated the cabinets absolutely needed to be removed to allow the kitchen components to be repaired, then that is what would need to be done. But that is NOT the point of this post. The point is, what is better? Install the floors before OR after the kitchen cabinets? Now, make you argument for one way or another.

Hardwood Floor Before or After Kitchen Cabinets?

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