I’m at my wits end and hope someone can help me out.

Last year, I had Bruce Natural Reflections glued directly to my concrete slab (In Texas, so no basement). For several reasons, we went with this vs. installing a plywood subfloor and doing real wood. To say this was the worst move of my life might be an understatement.

Within two months, it started to bubble and come loose from an area in my living room. After a lengthy process, the installers replaced the entire job. Based on readings they took atop the wood, they discovered my slab had a moisture percentage of 22-28% in some spots. (There was no moisture test done beforehand) Armed with this information, they glued down vinyl first and glued the Natural Reflections down atop the vinyl.

After a month, the vinyl started popping up in three locations – taking the floor with it. This time, the moisture reading came in at 23%.

My questions are this:

With that high of moisture content, is it even possible to install real wood with a plywood subfloor and any type of sealer or moisture barrier? Are there any suggestions anyone has to dry out my slab? I’m willing to do anything at this point, because I really would like a wood floor.

Thank you for any and all opinions.

With a MC that high, the only way I think a wood floor will be successful is to install it as a floating floor. You could lay 8 to 10 mil polyethylene plastic over the entire slab and lap it up the walls. Seal the seams with tape. Then install a noise reduction pad, then a floating hardwood floor. OR:
If you must have a solid, nailed down floor, install a floating subfloor with the solid flooring nailed to that. It couldn't hurt to seal the slab first with one of the moisture reduction systems out there, such as Bostik's MVP. There are other ones as well. Also, try to find out the source of the moisture. Do you have a plumbing leak? Are your downspouts attached to drain lines leading the rain runoff away from the foundation? Is the earth around the house graded to slope away from the building? Do you have a swimming pool with a crack or leak? Do you live above or near an underground spring? Just some sources of water that could be causing that high MC.

Thank you for your response.

I'm in the process of checking out all potential moisture causes. Being new at all this, that MC seems shockingly high. Is it your experience that if I can find the problem and correct it that I could potentially be OK to put in a nailed down floor?

This 22-28%, is a moisture reading of the wood, or the concrete??


If it is the wood, that is some serious MC!!!! Sure your not having a flood?


Pulling the vinyl with it?? Sounds like they didn't own a moisture meter, or they had one, but don't have a clue what they are actually looking at with it. Lind of like "smoke & mirrors" The floor buckled, because it gained moisture from humidity inside the home, after it was installed, instaed of before it was installed.

So the installers are getting moisture readings of the concrete through the wood huh?

Amazing! What moisture test method is this?

Smoke and mirrors indeed.

Yes, these moisture readings are allegedly for the concrete slab. But they never actually put a moisture tester on the slab itself. They simply set their equipment down atop the installed wood. Again, I'm a newbie -- but I'm guessing this is no way to test a slab?

I omitted one part of the story for length, but the floor was actually installed three times. After the first installation came up from the slab, they replaced just a portion of the job. They claimed that since linoleum was under the carpet that was ripped up, and that linoleum was acting as the moisture barrier, they should have waited for the slab to dry. So, they took up a portion of the floor, let "the slab dry out" for two days, then reinstalled the portion they took up. Only problem was the portion they reinstalled was with A DIFFERENT COLOR AND DIFFERENT FINISH. Sigh.

So, the floor they put down held for 7 months without a problem. They only tore it up and started over because of the noticable differentiation of color and finish.

This time, they ripped up the floor, put down plani-patch (sp?) to level it, and then glued vinyl down almost immediately. Again, I'm a newbie...but could that cause the problem? Seems like they wanted the slab to dry out before, but not this time?

Yes, this has been going on for almost a year. Yes, this has been one of the worst ordeals ever.

So, but what I'm reading is that there is potentially hope? That when this "wood" is ripped up again and they do a moisture test on my slab, I might be OK?

Wrong color and finish??? LOL Sorry but thats funny in a sad way.

Yes this will end when you throw those bums out and get someone who knows what they're doing.

I'm a bit confused.

Did they glue the hardwood over the vinyl, or directly onto the concrete?

Both. It's pretty confusing, I know. I'll see if I can boil down.

Installation #1 - June '06: Wood glued directly to concrete slab.

It came up from the slab after several weeks. The explanation at the time was that: (their words) "There was linoleum tile under the carpet we took up. That tile was a moisture barrier that was keeping moisture in the slab. We should have let the slab dry before we installed."

They only took up the affected area. They explained the rest of the floor was fine.

Installation #1.5 - August '06: Replaced affected section/glued directly to concrete.

Here's where the color/finish issue came into play. The replaced section was two shades lighter in color and finish was twice as glossy. Outside of this issue, the wood held to the slab until February -- albeit with some cupping in areas.

Installation #2 - February '07: Wood glued to vinyl

An independent inspector came to my home to assess the color/finish difference. They agreed there was a noticeable difference. While there, they also did a "moisture test" where he put a "moisture meter" atop the installed wood and found "22-28% moisture in the slab."

Based on that, they recommended gluing vinyl down to the slab and gluing the wood on top of the vinyl. The entire floor was cleared, leveled again with plani-patch and vinyl was promptly glued down. Then the wood was glued down atop the vinyl. It held for 5 weeks -- and then buckled in two places.

Needless to say, the current floor is being taken up in 10 days and accurate moisture readings/tests will be performed on the slab. More info to come then, I guess.

Does anyone think this might be a indoor humidity problem? Or a moist slab problem? Or a "glue and concrete" problem? Two of the three? All three?

Have the inspector do some calcium chloride tests @ a minimum of 3 per 1000sf. And I like to throw a couple around the perimeter in suspicious place like where water lines are coming in under the slab.

Placing sheet goods on a problem slab is totally the wrong thing to do. Since seetgoods will block moisture, yes, but is the most sensitive in that respect.

I have done it many times cept I use the wood flooring adhesive ( moistutre cure urethane so the sheetgoods is bonded with an adhesive of the same renacity as the wood. Using a cheap latex adhesive under the sheetgoods is a big DOH!

What adhesive are they using and make certain they use a moisture blocker befor egluing anything else down. K?

The installers removed the floor today. The wood adhered to the vinyl very well, but the vinyl never stuck to the slab. In fact, the entire wood/vinyl came up very easily. The last removal took a whole day of scraping the wood/glue from the slab. Today, it took less than an hour.

Right after they removed the wood, the entire surface of the concrete was tacky and moist. Except for a one foot oval that was much lighter in color and not tacky or moist at all. I got down with a scraper and started removing what i could best describe as mud. It was a mixture of vinyl glue and plani-patch. It was almost spongy.

This seems to be where all the moisture is. I scraped out a larger area, and again, the surface area of the actual concrete feels completely different under this gunk.

Any thoughts? Does anyone know of an easier way to remove this gunk, other than with a hammer and a hand scraper? Will this gunk affect a moisture reading? It seems like it would, but I'm a newbie...and I need any assistance I can get.

Thanks again for any opinions.

Let it dry then grind it off. Then fire those idiots. How many failures do you need? You have a moisture problem. That is obvious. That is why nothing is drying and everything remains sticky. You need to hire an inspector who will locate the source of moisture. Then, remedy the moisture problem. And after the slab comes within industry standards (3.5 lbs of moisture evaporation per 1000 sq.ft. within a 24 hour time period MAXIMUM as shown by a CC test), then you ready to look at installing a wood floor, and no sooner.

Well, they are fired. A wood-flooring specialist is coming over to assess the situation. They're going to do the tests, help us figure out the moisture issue and where we can go from here.

I will ask this question, though. Is it normal to put down a 3/8" layer of PlaniPatch over 600 sq. ft. and let it dry for only 12 hours before gluing down vinyl? From what I'm reading, PlaniPatch dries quick...but that quick?

In the end, I guess this is what I get for going to a giant chain store to buy a floor and installation. I don't think I'll make that mistake again. Or let anyone I know make that mistake either.

Thanks again to all who responded.

This is a great example of the world of wood floor covering. Or any floor covering for that matter. This is a big reason why our host here, Ken Fisher, started this website and sells quality flooring at low prices and offers FREE technical advice.

The reality is: very good installers generally DO NOT work for large chain stores. Large chain stores set the labor fees and charge the customer lots of money for the installation, then keep most of it for themselves and give just a percentage to the installer. By the time the installer gets his wage, it's a third or less of the installation fee, with all the "managers" and "sales staff" getting their cut. Us good installers generally have done a little "subbing" in the beginning and quickly learned we were getting ripped off and have since cut out those middlemen and work directly with the customer. So the installers that are working for those large chains are typically either very new and inexperienced (the majority) or lack the initiative or good sense to strike out on their own. Either way, the buyer usually isn't getting a "great" or even good installer but an "earn while you learn" installer. To make matters worse, they soon realize they need to cut corners to make any money at all. And they often do.

It's a system that is doomed to produce failures because it does not reward quality. That business system plays the numbers game. Sell and install X amount of floors and produce X amount of income at the lowest expense ratio. Under this system, we can "handle" (accept) 20% failures, especially if we blame our poorly paid installers, who have zero financial incentive to perform better. We know that after awhile, they will "get it" and quit. We'll just hire some more inexperienced people to "earn while they learn". This is the mentality of the chain retail flooring outfits.

In contrast, the professional flooring installer relies COMPLETELY on his successes to advertise for him. Under this business plan, he can often do a much better job for the same (or less) than the chain store because there are no managers and sales people in his pockets, taking his money. Overhead is kept to a minimum because large fancy showrooms and offices are not needed. Online vendors ( Hardwood Installer.com ) offer near wholesale pricing. By cutting out all the middlemen, the consumer can get a quality product with personal, expert installation at no more, and sometimes even less, than purchasing that floor from the chain store.

But let me fill the consumers in on a few sales tactics the chain stores use.
1) 100% free financing for a year. Make no payments for a year.
The fact is, any retail store can do this. The customer fills out an
application for financing. If you don't pay it off after that one year,
they hit you up for HIGH % interest fees from the DATE OF PURCHASE.
2) $.99 a ft solid wood flooring. It's #2 or WORSE grade red oak shorts,
unfinished. It might make a good fire but not a floor. You wouldn't even
want it in your barn.
3) LIFETIME INSTALLATION WARRANTY. Not worth the paper it's written
on. Read the fine print. There are so many loopholes and exclusions,
store or manufacturer rarely, if ever, honor these. Besides, by law, all
contractors are required to offer a limited warranty on their worksman-
ship for a reasonable period of time. One year minimum.
4) Free furniture moving, free pad, free installation, free this and that.
Don't be an idiot. Nothing's for free. All costs are simply rolled into the
overall cost of the work. They just aren't line itemizing it.

So folks, just a few pointers there on how the chains "reel them in." Sure, it takes a little more effort to find a good installer near you. But in the end, it will be worth it. Or, you can go to the chain store and go through what Joshers did. Take your pick.

Gary

WOW ..AT LEAST YOUR FLOOR COMPANY REINSTALLED FLOORS FOR YOU AT NO COST ..MINE JUST TOLD ME TO GO JUMP IN A LAKE ..LUCKY YOU ..