Ya, a conspiracy with Dennis was my main objective

Typical installation calls for "blind nailiing" an 8d finish nail. These starters were top nailed,( big difference when your talking about movement). AND from the look of the holes...that's no 8d finish nail. You can park a truck in there.

I do agree with your theory,( over Dennis ) about the RH. I believe it's a combo of the RH and for 3/4 plank... ( NWFA quote) "Subfloor must be within 2% MC of Hardwood before installing).

Cilantro & a BAM of pepper no problemo & of coarse the Chianti

But my Strap Clamps will kick Crains butt, not compatible

Here are some pictures of MC testing, I hope this answers some questions. Please let me know if more would be helpful.

Out of the box, day of install beginning, the MC of the hardwood was in the mid 6's. Like 6.2 to 6.9 kind of thing. I tested quite a few pieces.

The following pics were taken during my testing last night:

Testing calibration of meter, should read "12.0", and it does:


Testing a stair stringer, between main floor (ground level) and upper floor:


Other stringer, same stairs:


A scrap of hardwood, installed during the week of installation to hold my stair railing up until the stairs are completed:


Oddly enough, all the plywood I test reads a lot higher than other wood around it. For example, the plywood subfloor reads 9.8 while the stringers beside it read 7. I can't explain this, other than wood species or glue in the plywood.


Here's a reading from a thin piece of flooring at the top of the stairs leading from the main ground level to the lower level:


This is the living room, on the ground floor also:


Reading from the edge of the upper stairwell. This flooring is on the top floor, this wall is where the stairs are:


The plywood subfloor here is at the top of the basement stairs. It reads higher than other wood in the house (eg the stringers), but is about the same as all the other plywood:


Here's the hardwood at the top of the basement stairs, same location as the previous pic:


This is under the lowest level of the house, in the well ventilated (A/C and heat, forced air, same as the house, cement wall/floor) crawl-space:


And here's the floor directly above that crawlspace:


Here's a reading from a finger-joint-pine door jamb in the room above the crawlspace:


Some spare wood, which has been in the upper level of the house since installation:


Here's a reading of the upper floor, at the bathroom entry door. The previous pics of the buckling with the blue-taped level were about 8 feet from here, in the master bedroom.


Here's a reading of the underside of the master bedroom subfloor (top floor), very near where the buckling is the worst:

Yea, a picture of the pulled up floor would be great.

I wish these guys would use 15 lb felt at least. I know it's a big hassle carrying those heavy rolls upstairs and rolling it out but goodness gracious it does help.

Strange how the subfloor readings are higher than surrounding woods. Not like their way out of range, but possibly enough to cause the movement. Yes, I hate to say but IMHO a small fee for 15 pound saturated felt or 6-8 mil poly could have been the remedy.

But why is the subfloor difference 3-4 some odd points off from surrounding woods I dont believe it's the lam glue. What exactly is under the subfloors? Directly over joist, insulation, drywall ? Is there some type of plumbing sweating? To me there's obviously some type of cause for that higher MC.

It's really strange, I have to assume it's an issue with the meter reading the plywood incorrectly because the joists are normal, the OSB is normal, but the plywood reads high. I can't explain it really. It makes no sense that the plywood would actually have a MC of 10 while a 2x10 stringer immediately beside it would be normal (7ish). The plywood's been in the house over a year, and is immediately on top of the OSB (screwed every 6").

They did use a wax paper when installing, if that means anything. They rolled it everywhere prior to racking the wood and installing.

So, with all this information, what do I do now?

What's the right way to fix this? I feel these little poofy buckling sections all over, and can't imagine the ugly mess top-nailing or screwing would cause.. eek.

Any suggestions for how I should handle this with the installer and manufacturer?

jdelisle, ok the first thing a qualified inspector would do is put his little magnetic balls laong the T&G and figure out the nailing schedule. Unless you opt not to get a qualified inspector out there the only thing to do is to have the installer take up part of the floor. probably the closet for starters with everyone there. Check nailing schedule and also use the large hammer pin attached to the meter for better depth measurements.

Never heard of using wax paper. Who thought of that one..Betty Crocker?

Then we can go from there

Sounds like a good plan, I'd like someone unbiased to look at the work and floor and figure out what went wrong and how to fix it. Is there a designation or qualification I should look for in the inspector? Do installers carry these certifications, or are inspectors and installers generally separate trades?

Well now, thats a touchy grey area of inspections.

I'd find an installer with some inspection background as theres lots of unqualified inspectors out there that have never installed a hardwood floor or probably never done many moisture tests for that matter. Stay away from the national broker type of inspectors. Ask if they have ever installed a hardwood floor and lots of floor experience. Not just a helper turned inspector or retiired salesman.

What city and state are you in? I'll try and look one up for ya.

Never heard of wax paper underlayment either. But it is non-pourous, so should be effective. Well... I'm not positive bout that, some of that stuff does have the thickness of tp

There goes Stephen with that nailing schedule again I would have the guys try to take up that starter row as well. I have a feeling it's gonna pull the subfloor up with it, like a "wall" attached to the floor. Too strange that the expansion gap is the same width, especially considering the pressure of the buckle.

Definetely would be nice to get a deeper moisture reading.

For a good inspector I would consider calling one of the local wholesale distributors. They're familiar with the area and the inspectors, and usually recommend a good inspector, with past or current installation experience, and knows what they're doing. But whoever they recommend, I would make sure that's the guy looking at your floor. Not just some company sending someone over there.

I'll test with magnets and post pics, I have lots of magnets to test with.



I'd be happy to - where should I test?




I'll give the distributor a call, chances are they'll stand behind the product and want to see what's happened to me.



I'm in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. Thanks!!

Well geez...Dennis is in Canada, he may have a contact who knows a good inspector out your way.

Well, I tried this myself and I may have made an interesting discovery.

By far, the worst spot is in my master bedroom. That's the spot I've shown in the pics with the level with blue tape. Here's what I discovered with magnets. Note the green line, it's important for two reasons I think. It's where the high peak is, and I can hardly find any nails with the magnets. I can EASILY find them along any other boards. This is also where the installer changed directions! He floored into the room, worked his way away from the closet and wall, then went back and finished it. He had to install a custom-cut tongue into a groove to change directions. Not sure on which side, but either way, this is where he changed directions. See photos below.

I suspect I'm having a hard time finding nails here either because the 16d nails are hard to find with a magnet or they aren't there.

The worst spot, peak in green, note the lack of magnets and change of direction when entering room from door:


Here's a during-the-install pic of this same area:



Am I on to something here? This is -by far- the worst spot.

Just to interject on the underlay paper used. Ya, up here in the great north, wax paper is the norm, and does nothing as a vapour retarder but is cheap. Our company uses V-lok which does an amazing job for us and greatly reduces the "my floor is cupped" callbacks.

Now ya tell us he changed directions in the room. Yup, I bet no fasteners there at all, now Howard owes me some straps.

BTW What kinda consumer has magnetic balls laying around the house?