now it is his responsibility to make it ALL right. That means he is responsible for the crawl space conditions and the cost to make it up to manufacturers and industry standards.

That's the part I was talking about. Don't mean to be picky. I think the installers who hang here fully understand the situation, but I don't want the HO's to get the idea that the installers would be responsible for fixing a home problem.

Oh, I see.

I was saying, that now the flooring is installed over that bad crawl space and it has failed, it is his puppy to correct.

I agree, if the installer had informed the homeowner before the installation started, that the crawl space would have to be taken care of before he started the installation, and it was up to the home owner to have it done ahead of time, it wouldn't be part of the installers bid, and he wouldn't be forced to do it.

It's only his puppy to correct the flooring problem, not the crawl space problem. The crawl space problem existed before he did the job. The customers would have to correct that problem either way, before or now. The installer is never responsible for correcting pre-existing conditions in terms of having to perform the work. He is responsible to ensure the jobsite conditions are acceptable for the flooring he is installing. Even if the installer does not adhere to these standards and installs the floor anyway and the floor fails, as in this case, he is still not responsible for repairing the cause of the failure, only for repairing the floor that he installed.

Pre existing conditions, are examined during the bidding process, and written in the contract. If you agree to install their wood, for x amount of dollars, that includes everything needed to properly and successfully install the floor, unless you itemize out each service on the proposal.


Install x brand $xxxx. 00 Means your fixing everything to make it happen according to manufacturers specs.




Install "brand X $xxxx. 00
transition moldings labor $ 1,2,3. 00
Floor prep $ 1,2,3. 00
Shipping & handling $ xx. 00
Crawl space moisture control $ 1,2,3. 00
Debris Disposal $ 1,2,3. 00
___________________________________
Total $ xxxxx. 00


Or you can put one price as the first example, but you better describe what that price includes and what it doesn't include, such as, "this proposal does not include crawl space correction, furniture moving, or trim molding installation."

Perry, In a way, you are comparing apples to oranges. While I agree that an installer needs to indentify ANY potential installation problems, including crawl space or substrate problems, it is not his responsibility to correct them personally. His responsibility is to indentify and see to it that those problems are corrected by either the homeowner, the general contractor or himself. Now if an installer fails to indentify a problem and the floor fails, he is ONLY responsible for repairing the flooring itself AFTER whatever caused the problem is repaired. Look at it this way. Floor installer #1 comes out and sees a problem and notifies the homeowner that it will cost an additional $$$ to fix the problem. Now the homeowner can do it themselves, hire someone or pay the installer to fix the problem. In any case, the homeowner foots the bill. So lets say installer #2 fails to notice the problem and installs the floor and it fails. Yes, he eats his install plus the material and whatever it costs him to correct or repair the floor. However, the homeowner doesn't get a "freebee" just because the installer missed something. The homeowner is still responsible for footing the tab for correcting the cause of the failure (in this instance, crawl space moisture) because he would have had to in the first place had installer #2 noticed it. It was a cost that he would have born had the installer noticed it.
And yes, my contracts are very specific about what is included and what is not included. I typically do NOT include ANY subfloor repairs or on-grade vapor barriers. If those things are needed, then I will give the homeowner a separate quote for repairing or performing those jobs, if I want to deal with it. I do say that I will not install until those items are corrected, or I get a waiver, which doesn't let me totally off the hook. But most folks go ahead and have the repairs done by me or someone else.
And you may disagree with me professionally, that's cool. But this is how I see it and how I understand the NWFA has recommended these types of issues be handled. IMO.

I think we are agreeing in a way.

Or you can put one price as the first example, but you better describe what that price includes and what it doesn't include, such as, "this proposal does not include crawl space correction, furniture moving, or trim molding installation."

I have a question. Playing Devil's Advocate. What if the contractor, during the bidding process inquired about the site conditions, as to what was under the floor & the homeowner didn't disclose that there was a crawlspace, instead their response was "Nothing." Seasons change & depending on the mositure content, couldn't it have changed from the time the bid was done to the time the floor was actually installed. Also if there had previously been a "water or drainage" problem that was undisclosed, could this possibly be the consumer taking advantage of the contractor thinking that they should have "just known"? Just a thought.

Basically, a contractor is only responsible for the condition of the job site at the time the installation took place. Example: An installer installs a floor in July, and everything is fine. The installer checks subfloor moisture content and the crawlspace and everything checks out within recommended specs. He installs the floor and there are no problems; until the rainy season hits the following March. Now the crawl space floods and the flooring cups badly. Is the installer at fault? Not really, because that did not exist at the time of installation.

And I would not understand why a customer would withhold info that would help the floor installation be a success. If the customer did not know, that's one thing. But to intentionally withhold info ( like, my crawl space floods in the rainy season ) is only asking for problems. But, if they did for whatever strange reason, the installer would still only be responsible for any defects that were obvious at the time of installation. The burden of proof would be on the homeowner to prove the defect was clearly obvious at the time of installation, and that the installer did not practice due diligence in the performance of his craft.