Hi.

DIY first time attempting to install solid hardwood floors.
Let me first describe my set-up.
1. We purchased last year a 3 years old home, and we want to replace carpet in first floor, two rooms (family and living) with solid hardwood.
2. First floor is installed over unfinished basement, on what it looks as I beams Joists made from OSB similar material (not really the specialist here) - I will have to measure the span between beams;
3. The carpet (and hardwood in the end) will join tile installed in the kitchen and in the entry.
4. For aesthetic reasons we would prefer that hardwood will stay level with existing time, so no height change in floor level, excepting the threshold for the gap at the joint line hardwood - tile;
5. We decided to install Brazilian Walnut (Lumber Liquidators, Bellawood Brasilian Walnut Select, 5/8 or 3/4 thick, 3" wide, depending on actual height after removing carpet and carpet pad), installed perpendicular to the Joists;
6. We live in Salt Lake City, Utah, so somewhat dry climate;
7. We have a whole home humidifier for the heating season, as well we can consider adding humidifiers for the summer season, if the humidity drops.

Now my thoughts / intentions:

1. I was considering to use Tar paper and Cleats, to avoid tongue splitting on the Ipe hardwood;
2. For the same reason above I was considering using 18 gage cleats;
3. I'm intending to purchase a pneumatic nailer (PowerNail 50P or Flex, used with 18 gage cleats);

And now my problems / questions for experts:

1. The subfloor is OSB 11/16, Canadian produced, probably T&G (I will have to double check);
2. I think there is an underlayment on top of subfloor, but this seems to be OSB as well (it looks like OSB when lifting a corner of the carpet). I said I think (and I really hope) since it looks that the Builder installed the tile directly on the OSB, without installing first any backer board or cement boards - I'm not sure here, I will be able to find out when we are going to remove the carpet (scheduled for mid / end of July);
3. I was not able to see any seam in the OSB at the joint line Tile - Carpet, though might be covered by the tile thinset; if this is true that mean probably there is no way I can remove the OSB underlayment (it it exists) to replace it with plywood, without messing up the tiles - not good;
4. Worst case scenario - I have only the OSB subfloor and no underlayment
- can I get away with installing the above mentioned hardwood with 18 gage cleats, without topping with plywood?
- Would adding beads of glue help?
- If not, what would be the minimum plywood thickness I need to add?
- Would Staples instead of Cleats allow to install without adding plywood (actually increasing the floor height is the main problem)?
5. What are the chances that using Staples, for Brazilian Walnut, will not split tongue, at least not to the level where will prevent installing correctly the next row of strips ? Would 18 gage staples help?
6. If there is a underlayment, and assuming I can remove it, I'm planning to replace it with plywood of the same thickness. Any recommendation as to the plywood grade (CDX, better) ?

Thank you in advance for any suggestion / recommendation.
Right now we are in the stage where we collect all the date, plan for materials and tools.

Sincerely.

Bogdan Balasa

1) 3/4" OSB subflooring is a common and approved subfloor by NOFMA and the NWFA. That said, I prefer plywood. OSB is used only because it is less money.
2) You won't know till you remove the carpet and pad. However, knowing how cheap subdivision builders are, I'd bet there is no underlayment and your tile is glued directly to the subfloor, just waiting to crack.
3) You want the wood to meet up with the tile height. Before you can determine what flooring to use and whether you need underlayment or not, you need to see the height of the tile off the subfloor. If there's no underlayment, I'd estimate the tile is no more than 1/2" higher than the subfloor. Pull the carpet and pad back from the tile's edge and measure it.
4) Not approved. Use the 15 gauge cleats if you are using 3/4" hardwood. Cleats don't hold as well in OSB but are supposed to be easier to use on that extremely hard IPE. The gauge you use depends on the thickness of the flooring. Gluing as well as nailing always helps but is not always needed. Plus, if going directly to the subfloor, can be a problem if boards need replacing.
5) With a wood as hard as IPE, you can expect some tongue breakage whether using cleats or staples.
6) IF ( and that's a big IF ) you need plywood, then CDX is the bare minimum. It will suffice and is all you really need. It doesn't look pretty like A/B or B/C but you're covering it anyway.

Final thoughts: You're putting the cart before the horse. First, you need to make sure of the height of the tile off the subfloor. I would expect it to be no more than 1/2" IF there is no tile underlayment. So, you need to find a floor that will meet up with the height of the tile first. That will most likely be a 3/8", a 7/16" or a 1/2" floor. Then, you can determine the best way to install it over your existing subfloor. The thinner the wood floor, the thicker the subfloor requirements, IMO. Your existing subfloor maybe adequate for installing a 3/8" floor. I don't know. It needs to be stiff and flat, with little to no flex.

Gary,

Thank you for taking time to answer. And YES you are right, I'm putting the cart before the horse. Still I'm in the stage where I'm trying to collect all the data before deciding and submitting the orders for materials and tools. After the orders, once committed, my options will be significantly limited.

I'm planning to measure tonight what is the height of tile from the floor and I will post back.
If I get to this, what is the minimum thickness of plywood I should add? Can I get by with 5/16 and use a 3/8 plank hardwood?

Thanks again.

Bogdan Balasa

Gary,

I have measured and actually I have 3/4 thickness of tile.
I cannot see very well at the tile back, but there is either a thin underlayment of green (looks yellow) baker board underlayment and very thin thinset, or a a thick thinset, kind of white - yellowish.

But nonetheless I have 3/4" to work with. Can I get by with the actual 3/4" subfloor (or close to this), and install 3/4 IPE hardwood? Should I go with 3/8 plywood and then 3/8 IPE hardwood?

Also, after some research, I'm planning to purchase a pneumatic nailer that can shoot both 16 gage Cleats as well as Staples. I will try first on some "sacrificial" boards and see which holds better and of course which does the least damage to the boards.

Thank you for your suggestions.

Sincerely.

Bogdan Balasa

Given all the information you have indicated thus far, I believe the ideal install for you would be 3/8th ply under 3/8th engineered floor.
This of course does not take into consideration any budget constraints, which so far you have not indicated to be a concern.
Definitely, if you choose a solid 3/4 floor, in a hard wood such as IPE, you will find that cleats will perform better for you during installation, although I concede the staples might hold better in the short term.
(I have never seen a floor failure that could be attributed solely to the use of cleats over staples)
One thing not mentioned as yet, is that if you proceed with the installation of the 3/4 inch solid, given your sub-structure; you must lay the floor perpendicular to the joist direction.
Adding a portable humidifier as you indicated, may help with the stability of the floor. Keep in mind that engineered flooring, while inherently more stable than solid, is not inert; but will allow for a broader swing in seasonal humidity changes.

Dennis,

Thanks for the answer.
I have discussed this with my wife as well last night, and it seems we would prefer to go with the 3/4 hardwood instead of the 3/8 plywood and then 3/8 hardwood. The main reason being that 3/4 will allow for future re-finishing of the hardwood, if any accident will happen (not really concerned with normal wear for Ipe). We do plan to install perpendicular to the joists direction.

While budget is important, it is not the main factor. Having this in sight, any real issue that I will need to be aware in this case: 3/4 OSB subfloor and then 3/4 hardwood ?

I will try to see if I can get a configuration where Staples will not fracture significantly the tongue. If I can achieve it I will install with staples. If not then it is cleats. I'm thinking of 1 1/2 16 gauge Cleats / Staples, so the tip will not break through the subfloor. Any recommendation or issues?

Thanks for the tips.

Sincerely.

One more question for experts: for the very last row, should I rip the tongue, or just leave it in place? Should the expansion gap be measured from the tongue (for this last row) or from the end of plank surface?
What nails should I use for the face nailing: 4D, 6D others?

Sincerely.

Bogdan Balasa.

Well I was going to link him to the NOFMA Publications but it looks like the NWFA cut the cord. Unless its just my pc.

http://www.nofma.org/Default.aspx?tabid ... &content=0

The web site does not work for me either.

Bogdan.

Is this the link you ment
http://www.nofma.org/CertificationGradi ... fault.aspx

Removed carpet and padding in the first room. The OSB subfloor does not look too bad, but I have some metal straps connecting the foundation to the subfloor. Have you guys seen this before? If yes how have you dealt with it?
The metal straps lay on top of subfloor and are connected to the subfloor with a lot of nails. This will trow off for sure the level of the subfloor in these areas.

Any suggestion?

Bogdan.

Post pictures. Metal strapping isn't supposed to be cut or removed. You will probably need to remove some material from the bottom of the boards to fit over the strapping.

I definitely wouldn't be removing those straps.

I did exactly what Gary recommended. Removed material from underneath until flush with the floor. Of course it will mess-up a bit the nailing schedule in that particular areas, but I'm planning to drill through tongue and drive the nails with a hammer and a nail set through the metal strap if needed.

I already laid out the felt paper, so a bit late for the pictures.

From my inquest over the Internet, it seems that these straps are features meant to provide additional shear support for earthquakes or strong winds, preventing the house moving away from foundation.

Today I will start installing the hardwood actually, so I will provide an update, and maybe some pictures tonight.

Thank you for your support.

Sincerely.

Bogdan.

Finally I have finished the two rooms install of Bellawood Brazilian Walnut. It took more than I have expected, the reason being (I think) the unevenness of the subfloor as well as the hardness of the Brazilian Walnut. I had practically to beat each board into place, although I have leveled the subfloor as per producer and NOFMA Specs.

I have some pictures in my gallery, but so far I do not know how to get the pic_id. I can see then thumbnails but whenever I click on a picture, my browser (Firefox 3.5.1) complains about missing plug-ins and do not display anything, neither picture or picture info.

But the pictures should be in my Gallery titled: Brazilian Walnut First Floor (not sure though if the administrator approved them yet so they can be visible).

As for the final look, while I'm sure that any of the pro's on this forum would have done a way better job, and faster too, we do love our new floors.

Once more thanks for all support and advices offered.

Sincerely.

Bogdan