Hi. I am hoping someone can help me with a huge problem. I purchased a hardwood floor from Home Depot a year ago. Something is certainly wrong and I'm trying to find out if it is a problem with the installation or the wood itself. Below is a link to the engineered Armstrong Birch Saffron floor I had installed. It is glued down to concrete:

http://www.armstrong.com/flooring/hardw ... -89846.asp

This is my problem...if ANY liquid touches the floor for even mere SECONDS the boards "crinkle" where they meet one another at the ends. They do not "crinkle" on the sides, just where the two boards meet one another at the ends. Unfortunately I live in a studio apartment with no kitchen table. Over time things get spilled. You know how it is. However, in every instance the spill is completely cleaned up within seconds. Because of the problem I now have numerous boards that have this problem. I'm totally disgusted, as you can imagine, because otherwise the floor is beautiful. This "crinkling" is very obvious when light hits it the "wrong way." Something has to be wrong because I've seen MANY hardwood floors where a half glass of spilled water can sit on it for at least several minutes before being cleaned up and there is ZERO damage. I've called Armstrong and they are simply saying "Liquid and hardwood don't mix. This is to be expected." I just can't believe that is the case. So I have two questions:

1. In your expert opinion, is this an installation problem or a product issue?
2. Is there anything that can be done to minimize the "crinkling" - short of replacing all the boards (probably 20 of them).

Below is a link that will show a photo of the problem I am experiencing. This is my actual floor (it looks worse in person). Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you!

http://s1346.photobucket.com/user/clevo ... 8.jpg.html

Well wood and water don't mix awell at all. And, this is one of the reasons I don't like prefinished hardwood for kitchens...water can seap though the microbevel edges.

To me, this doesn't look like you installed the ends tight enough, so you are allowing water to get through below where the poly is. And, I think you will continue to get issues.

BTW, if you keep spilling, I would suggest that you come up w/ an alternative plan (e.g get an area rug or install tile or luxury vinyl that looks like hardwood).

Just my two cents.

Debbie Gartner, aka The Flooring Girl

Yep, the bevels do not have poly on them so water will wick under the finish. Same thing happens to bevels on laminate floors. The ends look tight to me. This is not installation. It is a maintenance issue. If you had a dog that pee'd on the floor would you expect the manufacturer to warranty it?

Even on older site finished floors there will eventually be cracks along the joints as the wood expands and contracts it cracks so you could have the same issue with a site finished floor.

You could find someone with an abrader type sanding machine, abrade and recoat.

Thank you for your feedback! Wow, I'm still surprised that having water on the floor for a few seconds can create this problem. Talk about unforgiving!

Debbie, we did eventually get a large rug to cover the area so continued damage has been minimized quite a bit. So now its just a matter of trying to fix the existing damage. I have replacement boards but I'm being told that its not easy to replace damaged boards (new boards can sit higher or lower than adjacent boards) and pretty costly. The cost per replacement board is an issue because I have 20 or so boards that need to be replaced.

Stephen, regarding the sanding machine...do you think those crinkles will come out with a sander and if so, does the entire floor need to be done or can I just sand where the crinkles are and then recoat there?

Thank you both for your responses!

Yes, replacing a few boards is challenging, esp if you are a DIY and don't do it often, and esp if it's glue down. It's often easier to replace larger sections. With the glue, it's hard to scrape it all up (esp in small sections), so I would not be surprised if it comes out uneven.

I'm not surprised by the wicking...there is not protection of the poly on the edges. And, sometimes, in engineered hardwoods, they use cheap filler so it prob. absorbs faster vs. solid hardwood (that is a guess).

I think Stephen's idea is a smart one. But, I think he is saying to SCREEN the Floors, not sand them. That way, you add another coat of poly and can also get some in between the grooves. You basically abrade the surface so it will accept the poly and add another coat. Sanding is going down to raw hardwood (and I'm guessing you can only sand those engineered floors once.

Regarding whole floor or partial floor, that's tough...you can stop it where there are clean breaks in wood, so theoretically, you may be able to stop at kitchen if there is a clear break. However, your wood may look different in the the other areas.

If you are not comfortable doing this, you may want to consider hiring a pro. I've seen too many floors ruined by DIY'ers when sanding. Laying hardwood is eaiser than sanding. and screening is easier than sanding. Only you know your skills.

A brilliant deduction Deb. I doubt the abrader would take out the crinkles, thats the wood veneer I'd bet. Replace planks and get a strong multifunction tool with some scraper blades for removing the adhesive. Also, there are scrapers now that attach to recipricating saws as well.

Personally I don't think it's much of an issue because it appears only visible in the right light or light angle. The old saying in the business goes as follows when it come to addressing problems.

"Inspections shall be done from a standing position." In other words, if you can't see it standing up, there's no problem. I know that's not the answer you want to hear, but...



That in itself could cause more problems, especially with a water based finish. And we have yet to even think about adhesion with all the new fangled finishes today in so far as bonding to the existing finish.

One outside possibility why this may be happening could have to do with the adhesive used. Years ago when I first used DriTac 6200 I didn't follow the directions because all the other adhesives previous to that were the type where you just spread then install.

Long story short, they recommended letting the adhesive "flash" which means allowing it to air dry for a period of time before laying into it. While this may not be the issue, it could open up some possibilities into why it's happening.

Without allowing any flash time, all the end joints showed exactly what you are referring to a few hours after they were installed. The problem was the moisture from the adhesive, but it did go away after a day or so.

I'm freely trying to grab what may be going on here based on that experience and especially the wrinkling characteristics. Perhaps these are ares where too much adhesive (for lack of a better term) is crammed between the planks and any water that is spilled does not innocently trickle to the bottom or dissipate. Nearly all hardwoods have some kind of microscopic gapping in the way they are milled for expansion and contraction.

SECONDS is the only thing that doesn't make sense to me because it usually takes time for the problem to show itself.

Thank you again to all of you for your responses! This has been tremendously helpful! To clarify a few things:

1. I definitely will have to hire someone to do any work. I would rate myself a 1 on a scale of 1 - 10 in the DIY department!

2. When I say "seconds" I mean if the water is in contact with the wood for even a few seconds the crinkling (or is it called wicking?) happens, but it does take a few hours for the crinkling to be visible.

Debbie/Stephen, when you suggest possibly "screening" the floor, will the new layer of poly cover the old one and thus hide the crinkling? If so, that could be an option.

Thank you Ken for your comments. Depending on the light, when you walk into my apartment you might say "what a beautiful floor!" But when you live there with varying angles of light, you see boards all day long that have this crinkling. If I think about selling my apartment at some point, I think any new owner would want to factor in having to replace the floor after a close inspection in natural daylight. So that is something I'm contending with.

Lastly, if you happen to know a really good flooring contact in NYC that you could recommend, I would be grateful. I spoke to several when I went to put the floor in a year ago and I wasn't filled with confidence!

Thanks again! You guys rock.

Excellent points, Ken. And, yes, there can be risks w/ screening the floors, too and how it takes w/ the prefinished hardwood (you could always call Armstrong and ask for their advice on this as well as screening.

Yes, I would definitely hire a professional for the repair. Oh how I wish I knew a great place in NYC..I get a lot of requests for that given that I'm in Westchester, NY maybe 30 mins away when there's no traffic (BTW, if you ever move to the suburbs here, give me a call...or if you move to NJ I know some good guys there. Oh, and BTW, if you are in NYC, some of the co-ops require water based poly and they won't allow oil). I have to find a good place in NYC too since I can give someone there a lot of referrals.

A great place to look for reputable places is angieslist.com. You can read the reviews online. But, there is a fee on there (but totally worth it). You can often just sign up for 1 month which I think costs $15. Alternatively, maybe you do a google search for NYC hardwood flooring and angie's list super service award winner. If someone has that posted on their site, they are more likely to be reputable.

Debbie Gartner, aka The Flooring Girl

You could call armstrong and ask for an inspection from an nwfa inspector. I doubt they will do anything though as it was not there prior to spills. worth a try anyways. Took a second look at the pic and it may just well be the finish, not the wood.

Thanks again guys! I will call Armstrong and ask about potential solutions and see if I can get an nwfa inspector to look at it. Depending on what they say I will utilized Angie's List for a reputable firm.

Thank you so much! I'll update this is there is any progress!

During a freeze with many floors being flooded I inspected 85 floors flooded and never experienced what I see here. Only 2 floors had an apparent affect from the flooded water cleaned up right away. You did say engineered wood correct?
Frankly I understand what everyone is saying but if this is happening that quickly something doesn't add up.
I would set up a movie camera spill water on an area and see how long this happens. Clean it up 10 minutes later and see how long it takes this condition to occur.
Now if it occurs you will have evidence to support your case. Yes, it is quite expensive to replace that many boards and if it continues to what avail.
I have seen this in instances where over zealous cleaning ladies wet mop continuously but that usually takes quite awhile to occur and generally the edges then lift somewhat this picture looks perfectly flat. As Ken says from a standing position 5 feet up 2 feet away without glare on the condition if it is not readily apparent it is generally considered acceptable.
On another forum there is an old time installer that states test test test and he has had much success where others have not.
Worth a try I would be interested in your findings.
If it occurs as stated get an NWFA Inspector to look at it. Testing is the only way they are allowed to find cause concerns. Justing looking at it is not enough.