Hello, All -- I've learned quite a bit by lurking on this Board, and now have a couple of questions.

I am planning to replace 1,419 square feet of carpet with engineered maple. Here's the thing: I am single, and live with two Giant Schnauzers (100 pounds and 80 pounds each) and a miniature Schnauzer (a 17-pound terror) who have just about full run of the house.

I initially planned to install laminate (either Bruce Reserve Black Forest or Quick-Step Perspective Wenge) in the areas receiving the most [dog] traffic (712 square feet), and engineered maple in the remainder of the areas. I originally thought laminate might be more durable with my dogs, but the cost of the two laminates I like most is nearing $5.00 per square foot as a DIY project, and $8.00 per square foot installed by a professional. I'm on a VERY TIGHT BUDGET and, consequently, at this rate it would take some time (not to mention CASH) to get the six rooms and two hallways redone. I have now, however, found what may be a bargain I cannot afford to pass up. I am looking at Pinnacle Americana 5" Sedona Maple at $3.49 per square foot INSTALLED. Obviously, at this price I can afford to purchase 1,500 square feet (allowing 5% waste) at just a little more than what it would cost for 750 square feet of the laminate product.

If I go with the Maple, would it make sense to purchase all 1,500 square feet at once to ensure that the run is from the same dye/stain lot? And, if so, how long would it be safe to keep the wood in its original containers inside each of the respective rooms into which it is being installed before actually installing? If I go the Maple route, I can afford the install on 712 square feet (two rooms) at the time of purchase; the remainder would sit in cartons in my house until I could afford to install the next batch -- which may be as long as two-three months down the line. Are there any reasons why this would be a bad idea? I don't want to miss out on the sale price, but then again if the wood goes bad (?) from sitting, there's no true bargain in the purchase.

Next, I am pretty sure that installing the engineered wood would appreciate the value of my house more so than installing laminate (although I feel pretty confident that I could install the laminate myself). While I know that the Pinnacle Americana Series is a budget product, I would certainly prefer wood to laminate . . . and I am not comfortable enough to attempt a glue-down install by myself; hence, I need to have it installed professionally and that costs money (Remember: tight budget).

I guess what I'm really trying to determine is whether or not the Pinnacle product is of a decent quality to hold up to three inside dogs (I do keep their nails dremmeled on a pretty regular basis). I will probably be in this house for another five years and would like to enjoy nice wood flooring during that time. So, I'm really not too concerned about what the warranty terms are, etc. As far as the wear layer is concerned, I seriously doubt that I will ever want or need to refinish the floor. I just want something that looks good for now.

I hope I haven't violated any rules by mentioning this product, but I do see that it is sold by this site and I believe I am in compliance. Any input would be greatly appreciated, as I have a very short window of opportunity within which to act. And, of course, I would be happy to learn of any recommendations of an installer in the Dallas/Fort Worth area from this board who can either meet or beat the install price I have been quoted ($1.50/square foot, including adhesive, removal of carpet, removal and reinstallation of baseboards and install of flooring). I have already pulled up the carpet in the family room (463 square feet) and am planning to pull up the master bedroom carpet soon (249 square feet).


Thanks in advance for your input!

Francine

Nope can't say I can! That is less then ¼ price according to me. Must be illegal immigrants that are going to be riffling through your house.

Good Luck!

Not much to say other than I second Floorguys comments ! Good luck!

Can't wait to read about it in the Yikes, I got problems thread. I third Floorguys comment.

First, I don't know what is considered a "reasonable" install price. From what I can gather from the flooring stores visited, it seems to run anywhere from $3.50 to $5.00 per square foot. In fact, the store at which I located this product charges $3.75 per square foot for installation. One of the salesmen at the store told me that he could do the job for $1.50 per square foot to help save money since cost was a factor. I can only assume that as there is a mark-up on the price of the wood itself purchased through a retail store, it stands to reason that there would be a markup on installation fees. I also assumed that in the interest of making extra money for himself (and saving me some money), the guy offered to install through his outfit. BTW, as far as I can tell, this guy was a 6'3", 275 pound white guy. Insofar as whether or not he uses illegal immigrant to install, I cannot say with certainty whether or not he does. He did tell me he'd been installing floors for 15 years, is bonded and insured, and had several references with whom I could visit or call about his work product. In the interest of saving money, I assumed this was a decent rate. In fact, in culling ads in the DMN, as well through subcontractors with posts at HD and L's, I've seen several installers at the rate of $1.40 to $1.75 per square foot for hardwood. Obviously, at $1.50 per square foot the guy is probably not a master woodworker; however, if the guy can install a glued-down engineered floor, and warranty his work I don't understand why utilizing his services would be a problem. After all, as I stated in my original post I am on a tight budget. To score the Pinnacle Americana Maple Sedona 5" Plank at $1.99 per square foot is (in my opinion) a major coup, as I have seen it run anywhere from just under $3.00 to over $5.00 per square foot. While I certainly understand the idea that one gets what one pays for, is it not possible that in this particular instance the guy may actually do a nice job? Heck, maybe he felt sorry for my broke a** and decided to do a kindness. LOL! But the main point of my post was to ask whether or not Pinnacle Americana was considered a decent wood, and if it was suitable for dogs. Asking for an installer reference on here was an attempt on my part to at least try and give something (albeit it small) back to the community for sharing so much information. I don't have a million dollar house and unlimited resources, and therefore cannot afford to pay $5.00 a square foot to install $2.00 a square foot floor. Besides, that doesn't really make economic sense. I am a single, working woman on a tight budget. At $3.49 per square foot installed, I can cover all of the areas in my home that I wish to replace with hardwood for about the same cost as putting laminate in my family room and master as a DIY project.

Now, I won't go so far as to say that I don't care whether or not the installer from whom I received the quote uses illegal immigrants or not (because I do). However, I do not understand why it is automatically assumed that the workers this guy uses will be illegals, or that they will be riffling through my house. Quite frankly, someone charging $10.00 per square foot to install might rifle through my house -- I'm not to quick to label. But trust me; no one is in my house without my presence, as my Giants would literally try to kill anyone there without me present to run interference. For that reason, I will be present during the install.

As far as me posting in the "Yikes!" area is concerned, why don't we cross that bridge IF we get to it? Yes, there could be problems, as anything is possible. But instead of damning the project before it has even started, why not wait and see? IF I use this installer and the job gets botched, I do know how to get the problem resolved to my satisfaction quite quickly. (I happen to work for one of the top litigation boutiques in the State of Texas.) The bottom line is, I think I've found some decent budget-priced flooring at a great price. After reading the how-to links about gluing down engineered wood, I figurd I should probably leave it to someone with experience gluing down floors. Don't get me wrong, I am pretty mechanically inclined; I just don't think I have the patience to deal with the gluing.

You know, I understand that when one asks for opinions, he will get all types. The funny thing is, the only responses I've received so far have been barbs about the installation price quoted to me. What I was hoping to get was feedback about the choice of flooring product, and whether it was a good/bad choice with my three dogs.

I'll not be a naysayer but let's look at the economics for the installer. You are saying for a $1.50 he will demo the carpet and install your wood floor plus supply the adhesive. Your job is 1500 sq.ft so that will require a MINIMUM of 30 gallons of adhesive. The cheapest stuff around will cost $20.00 a gal so the adhesive will cost your installer over 25% of his fee and leave him $1,600.00 to demo and install. Well, with a few low cost helpers, he may be able to complete it in a couple of days, which is what he will need to do to make any money. I can't see where he'll have time to CC moisture test and do much slab prep. I guess he's hoping all that will be fine. What about trims? Did you discuss baseboards and trims with him? If not, you will want to. What you don't want is to be in the middle of this and then have the guy start listing all the extra charges that will be required to complete the job. Some things are unknown, like slab prep but you should get a detailed estimate of exactly what he is doing and for how much. And what he is supplying. And some installers have been known to charge sales tax, so find out about that as well. The sceptic in me thinks in the end, you will end up paying more than that $3.50 a ft. but even if it's $4.00, it's still a very good value, assumming everything goes well. Do check out his references however. You want to know how he does business. And the Pinnacle floor, it is considered a "budget" engineered. Nothing wrong with that. But keep in mind, dogs are hell on floors. All floors. IMO, it won't matter which type you get, unless it's distressed, because your dogs will scratch it up. Try to minimize that by keeping nails well trimed and smoothed, avoid rambunctious behavior inside the house and keep water bowls off the floor. Good luck. Hope it all works out well for you.

Gary -- thanks for your insightful response. This installer claimed that his rate included pulling carpet and tackstrip, adhesive, installing the flooring, and removing and reinstalling the baseboards for $1.50 square foot. I really don't mind paying a little more if need be (e.g., to ensure that the installer users a better quality adhesive). I assumed that I needed to budget an additional $1,000 to the project for trim and adhesive upgrade (Bostik or Stauf, although Pinnacle also recommends Taylor). The only thing we did not discuss was the trims; however, I do understand that quarter rounds, t-strips and reducers are extra and I intend to purchase the required quantity -- I will need to ask what, if anthing, is charged for installing them. Thanks for reminding me to ask about that. I'm even considering laying the floors myself in the office and two guest bedrooms (square rooms). I've also made the job a little easier by beginning to remove the carpet in the larger areas. And I do intend to have him moisture test and all that other good stuff -- he's coming to my house tomorrow night to measure, and I will discuss all of particulars with him then. My plan is to purchase the wood; distribute it to the rooms in which it will be installed for acclimatization and storage for at least a week; in the interim, have him come out and perform required testing; and then, if everythings tests okay, have the install begin. I once supervised a commercial installation of jarrah and purpleheart in a tenant's office, and had the contractors pull it out and reinstall because it cupped within a month. I said that to say that even though I may not have installed a floor before, I've had considerable experience with tenant finish-out, and have built two homes. Most of the subs hated to see me coming because I tend to be a perfectionist. If it ain't right, you gotta do it over. I do, however, make it clear from the get-go to any contractor that I hire that I tend to be pretty anal -- kinda helps it go down a little better. I am nice about it though. LOL!

Anyhow, when I grow up and have enough money to afford to install solid wenge in my next house, I won't skimp on installation. In this instance, however, as long as the install is asthetically pleasing I'm okay with the fact that I'll be using budget wood.

Thanks again for your input.

Typically, acclimation for engineered is not needed very much because it is made to the ideal MC. I'll bet once it arrives, it will be between 7 to 9% MC right out of the box. If your slab is no higher than 3 lbs of moisture evaporation per 1000 sq.ft in a 24 hr. time period and you maintain 65 to 75 degrees F and the RH is about 50%, you really don't need to acclimatize. But do check the RH and slab moisture content. Many floors are ruined due to the MC content of the slab being too high.

Ah, Gary! You're a gentleman AND a scholar. Thanks again for great advice! I'm hoping that the testing will come out okay -- my 2,500 square foot house was built in 2002 on a concrete slab with no basement. While I would think the concrete has more than sufificiently cured, I will make sure that whomever does the install performs the required testing.

You know, after re-reading the glue-down instructions here on the site, I'm tempted to try a DIY install in one of the guest bedrooms, which is a 110 sq. ft. square. I'm pretty good at following instructions (mostly because I am so anal! LOL!). In fact, I've done quite a bit of improvements since I moved in. I replaced all of the light fixtures with either ceiling fans or chandeliers (I know, easy stuff), painted the whole house (including glazing some walls), replaced the thermostat, installed a storm door and installed an 180 linear foot run of brick in mortar edging. I did all of this with no help. Yeah, it probably took me longer doing it by myself, but when people did offer to help and didn't follow my instructions to a T, I decided it best to do it myself. When I lived in Chicago, my ex and I helped a neighbor build a 15' x 40' deck. So, while I've never laid a floor before, I'm not afraid to get dirty. Said all this to say that I would like to believe that if I'm very careful, I believe I can install a glued-down engineered floor. Of course, I'd definitely let a pro do the large areas and hallways, but the small rooms might be doable. If I am successful with the small rooms, I might attempt to do more. I'm starting to think that perhaps I should buy the entire 1,500 square feet and store it until I decide what to do. I think the biggest challenge will be figuring out the starting point in the larger rooms, and figuring out the transition for a T-shaped hallway that first runs perpendicular and then parrallel to the living/dining area.

Anyhow, thinking out loud now (read: rambling). Wondering if I'd be biting off more than I could chew in trying to do this install myself, despite being cautioned that glue-down is the most difficult DIY install?

In my professional opinion, direct glue downs to concrete are the most difficult because of all the things that must be done right to ensure a successful install. Plus, for me, it takes more of a toll on the body than a nail down floor. Accurite moisture testing is imperative, even for engineered floors. MC of concrete slabs has little to due with how old they are. All healthy concrete continues to wick up moisture and emit it in the form of vapor. And another issue can be that a moisture test is only valid at that particular moment in time. Two weeks or months later, the MC could be higher (or lower) depending on many factors. Therefore, many pros and adhesive manufacturers have taken the precautions of using the adhesive manufacturer's moisture control system. While adding an additional cost, it ensures the floor will not cup or fail due to excessive moisture from the concrete slab. The problem many DIYers run into is that they don't have the experience to handle problems when they crop up. Just don't know what to do. Pros who have laid many floors have already delt with many of the problems and have a method they'll employ to resolve it. An example would be: Keeping the floor boards tight and the joints snug while the adhesive cures. Pros use blue tape, strap clamps and wedges. That's just one issue among many. But you may find you can tackle it if that is your desire. Perhaps the installer you are to hire will get the job started and the big areas done. Then you can watch and observe, picking up some pointers and finish up a few of those smaller rooms. Anyway, good luck to you.

The problem many DIYers run into is that they don't have the experience to handle problems when they crop up.

that about sums it all up, gary. i usually can handle most projects myself, but i soon learned laying a floor isn't as easy as the H&G channel makes it out to be. i've watched many shows showing weekend warriors laying floors, and even tho the camera hides alot, i've noticed many mistakes that i'd be ashamed of, especially when the floor lines are not straight in the room, gaps between boards, etc etc.

if you're not willing to pay someone to do the job for you, then you better educate yourself as much as possible before you get started. once that floor is nailed or glued down, going back to correct mistakes gets costly. it's taken me probably 3 times longer to lay this floor down than what a professional would take, but that's because i check, re-check and check again. i've had to be creative and make special tools to help keep seams tight, grooves clean, lines straight, etc etc. if i wasn't retired, i'd definately would have hired the job out.

the hardest part (at least for me) was prepping the floors. this meant removing carpets, tack boards, baseboards (and not split them) then remove the old oak flooring, then down on hands and knees removing every nail and making sure the sub floor is nailed tight.

but half way done, we're getting good at racking several rows, checking location of seams, inspecting each board, etc etc.