We purchased a new home last August, its on a concrete slab above grade. The floor is engineered Mannington Oak which has been glued down. Now the floor is cupping up in probably 75 different spots around the house. Some are small and some are several feet square. If you step on them they will depress but then pop back up with a loud popping noise. The flooring people came out and attempted to use some type of glue in 3 different spots, one of them seemed to work while the other 2 are still very squishy when you put pressure on them, and this is 3 weeks after. It seems to me that I have either a moisture issue, bad glue or the installers goofed up. The flooring contractor was out last Monday and he is going to do a moisture test. Any ideas on what you think will have to be done? I am not keen on the idea of having 300 holes drilled and filled in my new floor so they can inject glue.

Thanks

This is just a guess based on your short post, but I'm gonna say it's probably a moisture issue.

The flooring contractor should have performed moisture tests PRIOR to installing the floor, not after they have a problem. How will he do the moisture test now that the floor is already layed anyways. Is he going to rip out a section of flooring and prep and clean the slab to get an acccurate reading? Sounds a** backwards.

They probably didn't do any initial moisture tests which would have revealed that the slab was releasing too much moisture to install the floor without treating it with a moisture barrior first.

Sounds like amateurs, or at least installers that aren't familiar with the proper way of glueing down hardwood over a slab. Prepare for the worst. Locate an independant flooring inspector in your area just in case you have to hire one. You can find one through the National Wood Flooring Assoc. website. You

Thanks for the reply, based on such a high number of trouble spots with the floor what are the options on getting it repaired? Whats our worst case scenario? Remove the floor completely and start over after correcting the problem?

Thanks

With Manningtonm engineered, I have never seen it actually buckle because of a moisture issue. It will peak the end joints up, and it will show a raised grain.

My take is there was a lack of floor prep, to make sure the substrate met the strict flatness specifications of, 1/8th of an inch, in a 6 feet radius, all over the substrate.


Lay a straight edge over these "hollow" areas, to see if there is a raise in the floor, and also to see how much it sinks when you step on it.

I'm sure I havent explained everything in enough detail. When we first moved into the house all was good with the exception of a couple of low spots which didnt seem to bad so we kinda overlooked them. Now 6 months after being in our home there are so many spots where when you walk the floor deflects and then after you move on will pop back up with a failrly loud pop. There are at least 75 spots which is you press on them they will deflect down and then back up. I havent put a level on them but I will this weekend. My concern is the high number of these spots which to me seem rather serious. So from what I have been able to learn it is either very improper floor prep, lack of any kind of moisture test or a failure of the glue, or an installer issue. With that concern is how do they go about first of all addressing the cause of this and then how do I get my floor like it should have been in the first place?

When a flooring contractor installs the floor do they always test and do they document that test so they have data to fall back on in the event of failure?

Thanks a lot!

Not all of them. Sad to say it, but most do not own the proper testing tools. They wing it on a hope and a prayer.

I do, as I'm also a certified failure investigator and I see first hand what can happen when the fingers start pointing. I cover my pucker hole, with photographs, and a job log on the back of the contract.!!!

Thanks for the help! If I can ask you another question. They want to come to the house on Monday and remove a few boards to test for moisture as well as send some glue samples to the manufacturer. The flooring contractor suggested the closet so that the removal of the boards wouldnt be so obvious but this isnt an area that seems to have a problem. What do you think? Should I ask them to remove some boards from the problem area?

Thanks

My impression from what I have read is that there is the possibility of a moisture issue. Hence the cupping presentation in the floor.

However, the popping and deflection in the floor comes from stepping on an area in the floor that has too much room to give. The adhesive will grab when the floor is depressed making contact between the floor and substrate. Then when the pressure is released and floor returns to it's unstressed position the adhesive releases and the popping sound is heard. This is the result of not creating a flat enough substrate suitable for a glue down installation.

I do not believe that this floor will be able to be saved based on your description. So I would not be afraid to let them take any portion you desire to remove first.

I agree with Barquios.

Again thanks for all your input. Here is the latest. They came to the house yesterday afternoon and performed an In-situ test. I guess this is a newer testing method from what I have read. Once they drilled into the concrete and installed the sensor and came back several hours later the test probe read 74% humidity at 68 degrees. Now I asked the guy who did the test and he said anything above 70% could be a problem but in my reading this morning I find that 75% is the number so I dont know if he was misinformned or untruthful to myself and the builder.

I asked the flooring contractor what kind of moisture test was performed prior to the install and he said none that he has been doing this for 38 years and just knows how to do it. After they removed a few boards I can see that in some places the glue was pretty thin and funny thing was I could peel the glue up from the floor pretty easy. I would have thought that the adhesion would be greater than that? The glue used was from a company called Roberts which I dont find much info on.

Again thanks and let me know what you guys think.

Mike

Had your Mannington floor been installed with Mannington Ultra Spread Mastic adhesive, it would be under warranty. But since the installer tried to save a few bucks by using another adhesive, you don't get a warranty from Mannington. Here's their warranty: http://www.mannington.com/residential/d ... s/wood.pdf

I installed almost 500 square feet of engineered santos mahogany as a DIY glue down project (yeah, I'm insane but it came out pretty good ).

After almost 5 months, I have a few isolated areas that are "popping" up when you walk on them. My guess is that i was sloppy in a few areas where the concrete floor was uneven and not enough glue was used.

On a glue down, it's very important to use the right amount of glue and spread rate.

If you have a concrete floor that's very un-even, over time the floor will move some if there's not enough glue used and solid contact between the flooring and concrete.

Engineered flooring is very tough with it's multi-ply layers, and it should not cup easliy.

My guess it's that it could be a combination of things:

-sloppy intall w/ not enough glue used in the proper spread rate
-concrete floor was out of spec and too uneven
-wrong glue used (water based ones can introduce moisture into your subfloor)
-your concrete slab was too new and had excessive moisture (trapping water under your flooring and concrete slab is the easiest way for your flooring to come up.)

I had another floor guy out today and he said they used a trowel for linoleum floor. The spacing where they ran the trowel across the floor are very thin which he said would not allow a proper amount of glue and would result in poor bonding.

Thanks

There ya go! Trying to save on the adhesive caused the floor to fail.

Yes indeed, it seems that more than a few errors were commited. I believe the only way to resolve this is a complete new floor. What a pain thats going to be but better now since its a new home than 5 years down the road and its my dime.

Any suggestions or things to look for would be very welcome.

Thanks