O.k. So I'm a 11 year in the business hardwood floorign contractor in Phx, Az. I absolutely love what I do but it seems more and more manufacturers are cutting corners and making things hard for us to keep our heads afloat. Here's my problem...
Last year begining of Jan 2011 we installed 2500sqft of engineered wood flooring from Floor Select. It was supposedly Certified and all that good stuff. About a few months after customer said some of the boards were delaminating. We went out and checked it out and saw "atleast" 50+ boards delaminiating. So we called the manufacturer and they admit they had a bad mill sent out and would replace it. We replaced it in Sept of 2011. Literally 3 weeks later it did the EXACT same thing again. We were assured that the new product was better and used a different mill to make it. (It's Japanese wood!) So this time they wont replace it, they said it's because of the living environment, lack of humidity. We installed the floor with 37% humidity at the time. We then hired and inspector got all the inspections done. The inspector noted the humidity at 27%, not significantly low enough to cause problems they said. The manufacturer wants between 35-55% humidity at all times. We live in Arizona this is IMPOSSIBLE without a constant humidifier on 90% of the year. Had a forensics tests done, failed bond line test and dry humid test. Manufacturer still wont replace it, what can we do??? Little money to sue

First off welcome to the site Edgefloors. I kinda missed your posts. I am just down the road from ya.

Next, what I do is write on the invoice the manufacturers requirements for the rh. Make sure it is in that zone when you install it, document it with pics, time date stamp, pics with identifiable background. Thats just to protect your butt. I used to do those kind of inspections of which you speak. Thats the very reason I stopped doing them. I could not do that knowing the wood is manufacturerd so poorly it delaminates in a dry zone. Worst case scenerio it should only check the finish and maybe small splits.

So if it is in the zone when you install it, course you have pics of the meter in the wood registering the MC and rh with temp using a professional grade hygrometer and pin meter. Either the interior is at the levels you need without a humidifier in there or you bring in a humidifier. I like to get them to purchase one. After that it's their baby.

Next is the UBC. If they sell it here it must be able to "perform" in this zone. They are on the hook for it, yet this is a complicated fight. We see consumers come here practically on a weekly basis posting the very same issues you have.

Finally.....there are manufacturers that are manufacturing to the hpva standards and have this is their literature with lifetime structural warranties. It's tough trying to educate clients when all they are seeing is how much money they can save by buying cheaply made wood.

This guy came here awhile ago and I pointed him to the (ANSI/HPVA EF 2009) standard. I think he is having a difficult time resolving the same issue your having.

http://www.flooringforum.com/forum/show ... php?t=1273

Just a thought, if it is claimed that the 27 % RH is not low enough to cause problems. What if the flooring may have been manufactured/glued together when the RH, and MC of the material used, is significantly higher than what the "service conditions" would be like the yearly, very low, average in AZ.

Only if the flooring material would be manufactured under similar conditions can it be reasonably safe to assume it will perform in such climate. In the midwest we have similar problems during the winter heating season where it is also challenging to maintain RH over 30 % but the RH in the summer may be very high (in excess of 70 %).
So AZ has it a bit easier because the average RH is low year round, however, flooring gets exposed to excessive shrinkage initially when it is just installed when the MC is higher than the yearly average of interior wood applications. That is when damage occurs with engineered flooring.

It is clear that the recommendation for maintaining proper Interior RH are challenging in a very low RH climate like experienced in AZ. It is possible to maintain a higher RH indoors but this needs to be made clear at the time of job delivery/purchase, just providing wood for replacement and then the same thing happens again without mentioning anything about RH is clearly a blatent disregard of common troubleshooting. It is the first thing to investigate if a complaint like this arises.

Johannes.

Johannes, it is a common misconception that out here in the southwest deserts the rh is low here year round. Not to say there can be some in the lower deserts.

Right now a small storm is blowing through, snow in the mountains and light rain in the valley's. My rh interior went up from 32% to 47% in 2 days and no humidifier running. In the summer monsoon season with the HVAC running it can hit over 60% rh interior and 100% exterior easily for weeks on end. Theres almost a steady stream of condensate running out the line from the HVAC unit.

Unfortunately, the delamination is a matter of poorly manufactured product. I have laminated many guitar bodies and guitar headstocks.Not one of them ever showed the slightest sign of delaminating and guitars shrink and swell seasonally. THe moral is to avoid products/ mills that you aren't 100% familiar with. And let customers know exactly what responsibility you are willing o accept for the job in writing before you take the job

Very true on staying away from products your not familiar with but, when you speak with people about a product and they have all the "supposed" certifications for that product then you just trust them I guess. Also when you've been working with a distributor for awhile that you know and trust, and they tell you about the product..bad deal. I don't buy from them any more unfortunately. Yea the humidity thing just plain old sucks. You can't tell a customer you need a humidifier when they buy they floor. Garuntee most customers would get pretty nervous about it and not buy the flooring. Plain and simple, a product shouldn't be sold somewhere dry or super humid and given a small window of 35-55% humidity. That's almost impossible to keep at that level,I've been doing this for 11 yrs now and this is the first floor out of those 11yrs that's ever delaminated. Neverless I haven't had anything on my record as well. I take care of my customers, most of the time know the products out there. Just one stupid $16,000 worth of Japanese crap wood can ruin you. I'm a small company and definitely don't have the money to sue or be sued. Bad part is the customer owns a few succesful business..so ya..he's got the money

Sorry Edge floors, thats not true. I believe it is your duty to educate the consumer. And if they're buy 16 grand worth of flooring, one or two humidifiers is not going to break the bank.

I like to tell them the benefits of humidification. I also have lots of wood in my house, furniture made of wood, large beamed ceilings etc. You goitta take care of your investments. Here is an article I wrote for Ken.

http://www.hardwoodinstaller.com/hardwo ... cation.htm

I have heard of humidity damaging the finish and have seen it, but lack of humidity? Sounds like crap product if you ask me. Install unfinished, sand and finish. Any pre-finished stuff I have installed has been questionable at best. Last month we were in a house and the lady was complaining about a prefinished floor that was sticky.

Of course we went through all the questions, what are you cleaning it with, excessive humidity, etc etc etc. I asked what it was like when it was installed, she said sticky and the guys told her it would stop. Maybe the fancy finish wasn't cured. Who knows? But when you do the job yourself from start to finish, you know.

Other guys can do that kind of work. Relying on manufacturers, for the most part is dangerous.

Here is a good way to buy your wood. Most people are on a budget, cheaper engineered is helping people get wood floors only realizing later ...well....it is cheap and falls apart.

Either A, get a humidifier and dehumidifier so you can stay within the range specified by the manufacturer. It is key to stay in the zone to avoid checking and splitting anyway. Wood comfort zone is much like humans. Whats the big deal?

Or....purchase less material but higher quality at a time. Most people are in such a rush, have this inplanted into their mind whe whole project should be done at once which is dumb.

Stephen,

I know that AZ has areas where RH can be higher at certain times of the year, that is the case in most areas with lower average RH compared to other regions in the US. Heck, just look at TX where the East side is the worst RH I have ever encountered and than the Western part of the state is rather dry.

A great deal has to do with the quality of the manufactured product, adhesive, rotary peeled material, etc.
But I have seen even good quality engineered fail in situations where RH was not managed properly, it may take just a short while to create excessive stress levels in the veneer material to cause the first indications of shrinkage related damage. Than with continued fluctuations further damage will become more obvious.

Like you already suggested , it is all about educating your customer. Buy a new car or appliance you read the manual, that should be the same with a hardwood floor.

Johannes.

Yea I know you gotta educate the customer which is one of my biggest things. Its just super frustrating never having a problem then bam..problem and a big one. Even more frustrating when the bond line test comes back as failed and so does the dry humid test. Yet the Company still won't replace it. They also discontinued that product..go figure, crooks. Stay away from Floor Select if u run across their wood.

The box stores walk away from that problem on a daily basis. They just send in an inspector who will write the report as "Interior rh not maintained according to manufacturers requirements." Thats exactly the reason I quit doing those inspections for brokers.....besides not getting paid for months.

Lots of good info here. I'd just like to emphasize that every contractor should put in writing exactly what they are willing to accept responsibility for. IF I laminate woods together when I'm tinkering with guitars, the laminations never come apart. But I'm not manufacturing the flooring so I never accept responsibility for delamination.

One product that might be of interest to you guys is Ten Oaks sealed six side flooring.THey generally mill 2 1/4 or 3 1/4 oak flooring and dip it in sealer. It's pretty well suited to radiant heat jobs and may be suitable for glue downs over slabs.

http://www.tenoaksflooring.com/choose/