Hi,

I just had a engineered hardwood flooring installed only to discover that it was installed incorrectly. Walking over it soon after it was 1/2 laid.. (1 hour) it was crackling. The owner told me it was due to moisture.. that soon after installation.. wow.. I don't think so. What does he take me for, a moron!

1. No expansion Gap! tight to the wall. No room for the floor to expand.
2. The installer said he nailed down a portion of the floor, the flooring in the livingroom has underlay beneath it.
3. No underlay (foam) beneath the flooring in the hallway. That was completely nailed down
4. Glue used was Lepage's Wood glue. (carpenter's glue)

I have read over every inch of the installation instructions that came with the flooring. This is definitely a "defective" installation. The company wants to blame it on the humidity in my bungalow. The flooring was installed in my livingroom. Not in my basement. It's an open basement (unfinished) humidity around 67%. Humidity upstairs 50%. No idea what the humidity levels were the day of installation but hey that's for the installer to worry about..

To avoid this very problem I asked the company to have the installer come in to check over the new subflooring (select 1/2" plywood) That subflooring was installed 2 months prior to this flooring being installed. to make sure everything was ok before laying the floor. He came up to have a look and was only concerned about the plinths being too high. His visit was brief. He did not have moisture meter with him and he didn't have a level.

I now have a "crackling" floor. Probably due to the glue joints cracking as you walk over the floor. But this is not due to a humidity/moisture problem like the company is claiming.

Looks like i got the COMBO INSTALL! glued, nailed, and floated. Only used foam underlay in the livingroom

The owner/manager of the flooring store came up to look at the floor2 wks ago. He says the problem is due to humidity and advised me to get dehumidifier. Said the problem would go away once the humidity levels were right. Said the more you walk over it the quieter the flooring will become. Well now it's 3 weeks since the floor was installed and the " crackling noise is still there. The humidity RH was reading 50% upstairs. There is no buckling of the floor which indicates to me that moisture isn't the problem here. I told him the floor was installed incorrectly and not according to manufacturer's instructions. He refused to address my concerns and wouldn't answer any of my questions concerning the installation. Why no Gap? why nails in a float-in Installation? why no foam underneath the flooring in the hallway? Why was the floor in the hallway nailed if it's a float in installation? I also told him it was the repsonsibility of the installer to make sure prior to installation that the subfloor and humidity levels were checked. Too late now for him to be bringing up his Delmhorst moisture meter.

What reputable installer would lay an engineered hardwood floor if the moiture levels were not within tolerances as specified in the installation guide.. hmmmm

So here I am with a "crackling" floor (Award terra bella distressed Milan red oak 1/2" thick 6.2 wide plank engineered hardwood flooring) I purchased on sale for $5.99 they told me it was origionally $11.99 good quality flooring. The installer didn't finish installing the floorng in the hallway. He has yet to install the transition pieces. The owner was asked to bring out the transition pieces the last time he was up. But he didn't. Everything is on hold I can't bring my furniture back in till this thing is settled.

One more thing>>>> I brought in an unopened package of flooring to a reputable hardwood dealer in town and had him test it for moisture.(using a Delmhorst moisture meter) the moisture readings in the individual boards were all over the place. However, he couldn't explain to me why that was. Readings were anywhere from 8% -18%. I have reason to believe this discontinued flooring was improperly stored. I was sold old inventory obvioulsy. The boards were slightly bowed(warped) Now the distributer who came up with the owner last week to check moisture levels agrees with the owner. He assures me it's not the product and recommended I install a 2nd dehumidifier upstairs. (the dehumidifier I have in the basement handles 2900sq.ft ) His moisture reader wasn't even functioning properly when he was down in the basement taking his readings. (faulty battery he said) when he was upstairs he had a reading of 30% until he discovered the reading was faulty and borrowed the other man's meter. and got a reading of 15% in the subfloor. My god! So any report he writes up would have to be questioned. WE agree to disagree. They want to say it's enviornmental... I'm saying it's a faulty installation.

Wanda

Golly what a mess. I'd call for an inspector to come out, write you a report, send them a copy.

However, your responsible for maintaining the ambient temp and rh in the home after the install. The installer may hve installed in the zone. But combinations of installation methods on the same floor are not within industry standards nor the manufactures I'd bet.

Having the rep out there not saying it was a hack job would really burn my a$$. I would take them both to court or at least have an attorney send a letter of intent. That will get them movong. But you better cover your butt first.

Hi,

Nice to get a response to my e-mail. Yeah, I thought my Ass was all ready covered when I had the installer come out and do a prelimanary check of the environment before installing the flooring. The guy had no moisture meter of level. I should have thrown him out the door! No true professional comes up to do an inspection without those tools.

I would love to take my nut cracker to that representative from the flooring company. I have to ask why they bothered to send a rep out to look at the flooring. The guy obviously knows diddly squat about how to install flooring.

Right now I am left with an unfinished flooring installation. The flooring in the hallway is 1/2 way installed and I am waiting for transition pieces which I doubt I'll ever get. I phoned the retailer today and he told me they'd take a week. They had to measure for each piece. Now last week when he came up to look at the floor with the rep. he was asked to bring up the transition pieces and gave me every indication that he would. The guy is toying around with me.

The retailer couldn't care less what happens to my floor. He wants me to except his "fix it". He said he'd cut out the pieces with the nails and cut around the perimeter of the room (expansion gap) Bit late if you ask me. A COMBO INSTALL.. not exceptable. and why the heck would I allow the same installer back to fix his messed up install. I'd have to be crazy.

wanda

Thats prolly the worst installation I have ever heard of. Where are you located so we may help you find a good inspector?

Note that any ole inspector may be a hired gun for the mills. Be careful. The worst are IICRC certified inspectors. Maybe go to the NWFA site and hope for the best.

Typically reps are ppl with a binez degree and know nothing about installation.

Obviously, you know what constitutes a proper install, and what is poor workmanship. Have you considered asking the flooring company to just undo whatever work they have done and give you your money back so you can hire professionals to do the work for you?
A massive aggravation to be sure, but it seems like you will never be satisfied with the floor youy have now, so this may be the best way to proceed.

Seems like Lorre had the same exact guys. I swear I saw this already.

To the OP. You maybe correct that the material is defective, as well as the installation. If the flooring was stored improperly, it can have major problems. I saw this before on a job where an engineered floor was glued down to concrete. After a week or so, it developed large gaps between the boards. It wasn't hot or dry in the home. Normal temps and humidity. The flooring had obviously picked up a lot of moisture during storage and now was drying out.There were some boards that hadn't been installed that were badly cupped and twisted. I've never seen that happen on a quality engineered floor before.

Hi guys,

Seems things are moving in a positive direction. After sending off numerous emails and talking to as many flooring people as I could.. The co-owner of the flooring place I purchased the flooring from phoned out of the blue on Friday. Told me he was going to give me a new floor. Wants me to pay 1/2 the install. The details have not been worked out yet. Said he'd phone back on Monday. He mentioned how he had some nice 3/4" prefinished oak. I wonder who is repsonsible for this turn of events...

Last e-mail I received was from the flooring rep in Halifax. After updating him on the situation (I mentioned to him that my contractor was up to inspect the floor and discovered that the entire flooring was NAILED through foam underlayement) This guy writes back and says.. "are you saying the ENTIRE floor was nailed down ?" I wrote back and said.. "yes, the entire floor was nailed down with underlayment underneath." Then the guy e-mails back, " Then the floor is a perfectly installed floor." Can you believe this guys ignorance.. and he's a Sales representative for the flooring compnay. My god!

For a floor that was supposed to be floated.. wow what a disaster. The installer said he only nailed a portion of the floor down and how he used Lepage's glue.. now we found out last week that the entire floor has been nailed down and no glue was used. This ignorant sales rep. has the nerve to e-mail me and tell me that there is nothing wrong with the installation.

Now I have to wait and see what this co-owner is willing to do for me... What type of flooring is he willing to install I wonder? I didn't get into any specifics over the phone with him. The guy has been away from the store all summer. He just got back late last week.

wanda

I cannot tell from your posts but you may have a type of floor that can be nailed, glued down or floated. Those types do exist but I do not know if yours is one of those types. Some recommend gluing the T&G's together even when gluing down directly to the substrate OR nailing/stapling the floors down. Now when nailing them down, typically a manufacturer will recommended the use of 15 lb. asphalt felt paper and NOT the foam underlayment. It sounds as if your installers used the foam ( required for a floating installation ) and nailed/stapled the floors down. This could allow for more up and down movement but I do not think it should normally be a problem. What I think maybe the problem is nailing/stapling down the engineered flooring. I have noticed with some brands, even when using the manufacturer's recommended stapler and staple sizes, the engineered floors can sometimes, snap, crackle and pop. This is very frustrating to the installer. Not all brands do this and with not every type of fastener. The problems come from the fastener sitting too deeply into the tongue and not getting enough grip on the board. If the compressor PSI is too high, the fastener will not pull the board down to the subfloor well enough. Also, spacing the fasteners too far apart can cause noise problems when nailing down an engineered. Those needs small fasteners/staples very close, like every 4". Without a proper onsite inspection, it's hard to determine the cause of the noises. Without knowing which brand and style of flooring you had installed, it's hard to determine whether it was performed correctly. It should not be excessively noisy. I have found that a nailed down engineered floor will commonly make a few snaps and pops here and there. They just do not usually nail/staple down as well as a solid due to the smaller T&G's and thinner profiles. My opinion this is a fastener installation issue more than anything else.

Having just read Award's Terra Bella installation instructions, this is one of the types of floors that can be floated, stapled/nailed or glued down. The instructions call for gluing the end butts T&G's in every installation type. Stapling/nailing calls for either 15 lb. asphalt felt or red rosin paper. Award did not make a recommendation for which type of staple or fastener to use. They recommended an 8" nailing schedule, which I find inadequate IF the installer is using E-cleats or those 20 gauge staples. This product is over 6" wide. Unless firmly attached, it will make the snap, crackle and pop noises. I suspect the fastening was done inadequately.

8" scheduled on a ½" engineered?

That is wide. I have seen 4-6" with most all other engineereds, that can be fastened down.

Hi Gary,

The instructions that came with the flooring did specify the type of nailing pattern and staple size to use.
They recommend a Spotnail Stapler with 1 3/8" Staple (Model #FS4825W2 or equivalent) That's what it lists underneth Installation products required.

Wide plank engineered hardwood flooring should not have been recommended. The wider planks are must more prone to cupping. And from what I have read here on the forum should never be nailed.

Now not sure if I mentioned in my earlier posts... I had this new Award engineered hardwood flooring 1/2" patina relics distressed installed in late July. I have to wonder why the sales rep ever recommended this type of flooring for a summer home that is NOT HEATED during the coldest months of winter. (Dec, Jan, Feb,March) where I live (Canada eastcoast) . I'm thinking the only sensible flooring would be Fiber flooring. What would you suggest?

I have to make a decision about the flooring very soon. I should be getting a call back from the flooring company tomororw. (Monday)

wanda

Wanda

Cupping or shrinkage isn't as much of a concern with an engineered floor like the Award floor. But if it's allowed to get below 50 degrees and 20% RH, then sure, any wood floor can fail. If this is a summer cabin unoccupied all winter, perhaps a wood floor isn't the best choice for a floor.

Whats this guy doing? lol Whats he stapling over?

http://osbguide.tecotested.com/pdfs/en/el813.pdf

HI, thanks for that link.

Their best Installer is coming up on Sunday to begin hauling up the floor. Let's just hope the boards are not too damaged. There are at least 6 nails per board. It has taken this flooring company a month to finally come to the conclusion that this floor was installed incorrectly.

Just the other day when I was into the store the man was willing to lay down a solid hardwood floor yet he went on about how moisture was the cause of my flooring problem. What a numbskull! They are going to correct the installation mistakes that were made the first time, bringing in extra material to cover any boards that might be damaged in the process. It will be done at no extra cost to me.. OH MY! how generous of them! Sales representative claiming it's a moisture problem as of Tuesday and me insisting it's an install problem.. What morons.

wanda

Wanda

hi,

The installer came up and had a look at the subfloor. Took up the entire flooring and stacked it agains the wall. 60sq ft of that engineered flooring was glued the rest nailed down and not glued. So we have 60sqft of unuseable flooring.

He took up 3 sheets of the 1/2" plywood and discovered another improper installation. Guy who did this has no idea how to level and out-of-level floor. What a mess. He centered his pieces of strapping 16" on center.. that's way too much for 1/2" plywood. Too cheap to purchase 1X3 strapping. There is way too much "bounce/flex in the subfloor. So the engineered hardwood cannot be installed till this problem is taken care of. From what I can see he shimmed some of the floor up using leftover pieces of lattice (again why couldn't he just buy a bundle of wood shims from the hardware store.)

The installer took a small handful of marbles and dropped them onto the subfloor (this was before he took up the sheets of plywood) and let them roll over the subfloor. Ok so there are dips and slopes. I'd say out by 1/2" in some areas. Then he did a 2nd test. He took 2 scraps of flooring laid them on top of the plywood subfloor and strung a masons string across the subfloor looking for the high spot. Wonder why he just didn't use an 8' level.

The original installer should have checked that floor before he laid that engineered floor. The manufacturer's instructions say the floor should be within 1/8th" over aan 8' radius. That seems pretty strict for an engineered floor.

What I need to know is how to level this out of level floor. I'm thinking it shouldn't be that difficult. I will strip up the 1/2" plywood and use 5/8" plywood that will reduce if not eliminate the flex in the subfloor. 1. strap the floor.. placing the strapping over the joists/ shim the low spots 2. screw down the plywood . staggering the joints. and leaving an 1/8th " space between the sheets.

Is that the right way to tackle this problem????