I am about to start phase 2 of my Hardwood installation. This is part of a longtime remodeling project done at our own pace, one room at a time, and we're sure not breaking any records. I've researched and read everything I could find about installing hardwood floors and it seems every time I decide on a plan, some other "important consideration" or "recommended practice" has me second guessing myself. I have a number of concerns and questions and would really appreciate some advice from the pros. I have included a floorplan below for reference.



The first project room completed was a former bedroom turned office as shown in the upper right corner of the drawing. The former entry door in the hallway was walled up and french doors were installed at the back of what used to be the closet to provide access from the living room. The 3/4" x 3-1/4" prefinished Bruce HW (CR3455) was laid perpendicular to the floor joists as shown and finished off with a perpendicular transition (threshhold) piece at the doorway. Next for hardwood comes the living room and hall which will be followed by the dining room, kitchen, and bedroom as shown on the plan.

I first planned on starting along the long wall extending down the halway as shown by the RED LINE. If possible, I would of course also like to have the living floor joint lines line up with those in the office floor. This may or may not work out depending on the amount of expansion space used and whether or not I rip the first starter row which may be preferred depending on how I handle the transition through the doorways and cased openings into the next rooms to be completed. If I start on the RED LINE, I would use splines to reverse the lay at the doorways and openings and another spline again at the GREEN LINE in the bedroom to work toward and into the bedroom closet.

I've also considered starting at the BLUE LINE which represents a chalk line snapped along the entire length of the office floor's joint line and extended into the living room. This would provide the visual lineup I'd like but would also require a spline running the full length of the living room to proceed from there in both directions. This approach would also leave to chance and ultimately determine what occurs at both walls on either side of the living room as well as what I will be faced with at the top of the stairs. See photo of top of stairs. The five rows of wood stacked in this picture begin at the BLUE LINE and shows what remains at the top of the stairs.



The existing stair nose is still in place from when the room was carpeted and is flush with the subfloor. This nose will be removed and a new stair nose installed and shimmed up to the proper height. When the existing nose was installed many years ago, the groove side was ripped off to fit and I can't remember how much was ripped off. Knowing the full width of a new Bruce Stair Nose (p/n T 7355) would probably help me a lot in laying out the different possibilities and deciding on where best to start. Anyone familiar with the size (width) of the Armstrong/Bruce Stair Nose (T 7355)?

To further complicate matters and add to my confusion, I've recently read in a number of posts that the top of the stairs is the correct place to start.

I realize there is seldom one single answer, and that the decision as to where to start depends on the consideration of all factors and may include compromises. I would appreciate any suggestions and/or advice on where to start or how to decide on the best solution.

Also...

MINIMUM EXPANSION SPACE: I have read recently that a mimimum of 3/8" - 3/4" expansion space be provided on all sides of the floor. I have also read that most expansion problems are caused by failure to assure adequate acclimation of the product and problem site conditions. The previously completed office floor was installed before I had done my homework and only provided 1/4" expansion for the floor in the office. The 1/4" was used because I wanted to install the existing baseboard (2-3/4" high x 7/16" wide at the bottom). This floor has been installed now for about 4 years and so far, there is no evidence of any problems. It may be that our good fortune is due to the floor being of limited size (only 10' wide) and is on the upper level of our raised ranch with a heated and air conditioned lower level (basement) that is only half in the ground. Under these site conditions, does anyone believe 1/4" expansion to be sufficient throughout the rest of the upper level HW installation? Once this (for me undecided) issue is decided I can begin with accurate measurements to see how the various layout plans might work out.

CAN HW FLOORING BE TOO DRY TO INSTALL? All the flooring for this project was purchased over 4 years ago. It has been stored in the attached garage stacked nicely and squarely on adjacent pallets to keep it all straight. The wood was probably milled 5 years ago. Could this be a problem? I haven't measured the MC but assume it is by now quite dry. Can the wood be too dry to install? Will the wood acquire the correct amount of moisture when moved into the project rooms to acclimate? Under these circumstances how long an acclimation period would be recommended?

I do have other questions before proceeding but will post them in a separate thread as I'm thinking this post has already grown large enough. I apologize for the length!
Thanks in advance for any and all replies. ZT

Hi ZT , I would run the floor off the blue line .. if the LR doesn't line up with the office it is going to look funky ..Acclimation is not a result of time .. The wood is acclimated when the wood is within 2 > 4 % MC of the sub floor , At a RH of 30 to 50 % and temp of 68 to 70 degrees .. With 3 1/4 plank i would try and get it closer to the 2 % .. stack the wood in the room you are going to install it in , No more then 3 boxes high , open both ends .. You can get a cheap electronic hygrometer/thermometer at the rat shack for around $20.00 .. Set it on the floor where the wood lives for 1/2 hr and record readings .. You can also get a cheap pin meter from
http://www.amazon.com/MD-4G-Wood-Moistu ... 331&sr=1-9 ..
Better then nothing .. Pin the wood one pin behind the other following the length of the wood .. Pin at least 10 to 20 boards from different boxes .. If you post back your readings we can tell you if you are ready to install ..

Hi Nick, Thanks for your reply! I agree that starting at the BLUE LINE is probably the best solution.

And thanks too for the nudge to get my own moisture meter. By "rat shack" do you mean Radio Shack? If so, is the radio shack meter suitable for checking both the subfloor and the HW product or will I still need pin meter to check the moisture of the HW?

I went ahead and snapped that blue chalk line shown on the drawing. After doing so, I made a few measurements, from the blue chalk line to the two living room walls that I will be working toward, to verify the symmetry of the line and determine the width of the last row of HW on each side of the room. Here's what I found...

Distance from BLUE LINE to the long wall along the red line / Width of last row:
Just outside the office = 87-7/16" / 2-15/16" less expansion allowance
Just before the Kitchen opening = 87-1/2" / 3" less expansion allowance
Just after the Kitchen opening = 87-3/8" / 2-7/8" less expansion allowance
Just before the DR opening = 87-7/16" / 2-15/16" less expansion allowance
Just after the DR opening = 87-1/8" / 2-5/8" less expansion allowance (yikes)
At the far corner = 87-7/16" / 2-15/16" less expansion allowance

Distance from BLUE LINE to the Fireplace wall / Width of last row:
Just beyond stairway = 73-1/2" / 2" less expansion allowance
Just before Fireplace = 73-7/16 / 1-15/16" less expansion allowance
Just after Fireplace = 73-5/16" / 1-13/16" less expansion allowance
At the far corner = 73-1/16" / 1-9/16" less expansion allowance (yikes again)

Do you (or any others) often see this much variation in such measurements? Or are these out of line and likely to cause problems? Does anyone really make such measurements when planning a layout?

I also noted that, while the blue chalk line is perfectly parallel with the joint lines in the office, the line DOES NOT wind up being perfectly perpendicular to the far wall in the living room with the sliding glass door. Is this likely to cause problems?

Am I on the right track here as to planning the layout? Any other tips or advice out there on how to fine tune the layout and starting line?

I would appreciate any replies and advice. ZT

Yes ZT , Radio Shack .. the electronic hygrometer/thermometer is going to give you the Relative Humidity and temperature in the house .. I like putting it on the floor away from a outside wall and direct sunlight which will throw off your readings .. The pin meter is going to give you the Moisture Content in the wood and the sub floor .. When you get your readings post back with them , will let you know if you are ready to install .. Are you sure the floor in the office is laying square in the room ? usually the outside wall will be the straightest wall in the house .. chalk a line 4" from the outside wall in the LR up to the fire place , and one across the width towards the DR .. Measure up from the bottom right corner in the LR from the chalk line and make a mark at 4' , and one going towards the DR at 3' from the chalk line measure from the 3' to the 4' mark .. if you are laying square in the room your measurement should be 5' .. once you adjust the line to get it at 5' take a measurement to the blue line at the bottom and top of the LR and see how it lines up to the blue line .. Are you going to lace the office into the LR , or leave the transition piece there ? Are you going to frame the fire place , or cut the boards to it ?

Hi Nick, Thanks again for your replies and for explaining about the two different meters and how to use them.

The office floor does appear to be laid quite square in the room. This floor was, (mistakenly), started on the long interior office wall. I took some measurements in the office this morning though, and the distances from a joint line in the middle of the office floor to 4 different points along the long exterior office wall were very close; 3 of the 4 measurements were exactly the same with the 4th measurement being within 1/8" of the other 3. This could easily be the result of variations in the drywall. Based on these measurements, do you think the office floor is laying square in the room?

I do understand the geometry of the 3-4-5 triangle to determine a true right angle and will do as you suggest to try and square things up. I will post again if I have any questions on this.

TRANSITION PIECE: I hadn't originally planned on removing the transition piece and thought I'd leave it there as sort of a "threshold" under the french doors I really thought I was locked into leaving it there after cutting all the rows to the same length at the office doorway. I am however looking forward to reading any answers to a question on this asked by "sctrader" below. Last time I looked there no replies to that post. Wouldn't lacing the office floor into the LR at this point be quite difficult?

FIREPLACE: Thanks for asking! I haven't decided on how to handle the fireplace yet. I included the RED and BLUE X's on my original floorplan as two areas where I still need some advice and was going to post separately for these two areas. Since you've asked here, I've posted a photo of the fireplace below.



The black line (if you can see it in the photo) and the end of the measuring tape shows where the last full row should wind up if I start on the blue line. About 1" from the fireplace. The mortar edge on front of the hearth was brought out to a temporary board when the fireplace was built but the board wasn't perfectly straight leaving the mortar edge bowed outward slightly in the middle (about 1/4" - 3/8"). The mortar edges on the sides of the hearth are however quite irregular. I would appreciate any and all suggestions.

ZT

What do the red X s represent ZT ?
I would rent a undercut saw with a concrete blade and cut into the bottom of the fireplace the height of the wood .. That way you can slid the board under it and have a finished product with expansion space .. You can leave the transition piece there if you want , But it looks a lot nicer if you remove it , and remove each board back to the end joint , Put a little PL400 in the area where you removed the board and tap it in with your mallet ,and blind nail it where you can .. We can discuss that further if that is the way you go .. I would also get a 6' level .. $20.00 At Harbor freight .. and check for flatness 1/8 " in 6' .. If you are in the South Jersey area , I would be more then happy to stop by and get you started ..
Nick ..

Link on fireplace solutions.


Installing hardwood floors around fireplace

Thanks for the fireplace link Ken! I appreciate the info.

And thanks again to Nick for your willingness to share with others and your generous offer to "stop by" to help get me started. New Jersey however, is a long way from where I live in the suburbs west of Chicago.

The RED X's represent the area where the new flooring will meet the "toe rail" of the "bannister railing" and I'm not to sure how this area should be handled. I've included a photo below.



Will this area need some expansion space and some sort of top trim? Perhaps a modified T-Molding, reducer, or threshold trim? Or can the floor be run right up to this toe rail?

It may not be apparent in the photo but the 3/4" flooring is slightly higher (1/16" - 3/32") than where the curved routed edge begins on the vertical side of the toe rail so that when viewed from the stair side of the railing the very top of the end of the plank is visible. Probably a little more so after laying down the 15# felt. Short of tearing out and replacing the railing, what's the best way to handle this area? Or will R&R of the railing be necessary to look good?

As for removing the transition piece and lacing the office floor into the living room, I would consider this but would like to learn in more detail just what is involved. The boards in the doorway vary in length from 1' to 5' if that matters. I'm guessing that PL400 is some sort of adhesive and that one or more 3/4" saw cuts would be made down through the joint lines to sever the tongues of the affected boards. I would appreciate a more detailed explanation or directions to where I might find this sort of info.

The longest level I have is 4' but I have been checking for flatness with the edge of a 6' metal rule. There is some variation but I have not found any greater than 1/8' variation in 6'. If anything greater is discovered, I will level it out with tapered sections of additional layers of felt.

As to the fireplace... I am intrigued by the idea of undercutting the hearth and think that would probably look very nice. The hearth actually is already undercut 1/4" all around except for the very back corners of the sides of the hearth wher it meets the wall. I never noticed this space until after removing the carpet and tack strips. (I'm not sure if the fireplace mason did his work over a temporary 1/4" sheet of some sort or if my floor has settled this much in the last 30 years.) So this might work out to be easier than it initially seemed to me. Some of the large rocks are very close to the bottom. Will the carbide undercut saw go through the rock as easy as the mortar?

I do appreciate the help this site provides to newbies such as myself! ZT

PS. Today I resized the photos in this post so that left-right scrolling is no longer necessary to read each line of text. Much less hassle! I'm still learning as I go.

Undercutting hearths - http://www.custom-surfaces.com/23.html

Thanks for your reply Jerry and for the link on undercutting. The pictures of the task and the tools were very informative.

I appreciate your help! ZT

You're very welcome. My server is having problems right now.

Numerous ways to approach this. If you are going to refinish the bottom shoe rail to match the flooring I would try back cutting the butt ends so they would fit up a little tighter. Butting up tight there is normal to do.

Jerry, I did have some proplems with the slide shows locking up but thought it was because my computer lacks the latest and greatest flash video player. I was, however, able to view all the slides and pages with a few tries. Again, lots of good pictures and info there.

I was going to freshen up the dark walnut stain on the existing woodwork but not to match the HW. My flooring is the Bruce CR3455 which has a distressed antique finish so would be pretty tough to match without an airbrush and wacking chain. The dark walnut on my (mostly) oak trim does tie in well with some of the darker shades in the flooring and provides a nice contrast.

By back cutting, I assume you mean to "undercut" the bottom of the board so the top surface of the flooring reaches out farther to join the routed curved edge of the toe rail. Is this correct?

I also considered sanding back the vertical edge of the toe rail to increase the height at which the round routed edge begins or even wacking off the routed edge completely. Can you suggest a good way to do either with the toe rail in place?

Thanks again for your help! ZT

Yes , that is back cutting ZT .. By the way you are my new ghost writer ..
Get a piece of scrap and adjust your chop saw a few degrees at a time till you get the cut you want ..
Not having all the fancy tools that Jerry has , Like the festool .. You can take a measurement from where you want the cut and screw some straight plywood down the width of your circular saw to use as a track to run the saw .. use a 60 to 80 tooth blade .. then with a very sharp chisel clean the edges .. By the way Jerry does really nice work ..

Hows it going Nick? Are you the Nick from Joisey?

Sho Is .. Who wlse would know you have all those fancy tools ?