I am putting in 1500 sq feet of engineered Brazilian Cherry or Santos Mahogany on my slab floor. After some research, it is difficult to determine the quality (ie some uniformity-considering it's a natural wood, length of the planks, durability, etc.). It seems like the Mannington or Mirage are very nice, but over-priced. We got a box of "Gemwoods" (imported from a China through a importer) and it was crap: a thin veneer and the grain was fairly radical. So far in my research, "Urban" flooring seems reasonably priced, but the planks seem shorter(?).

Of these two species of wood, I am looking for something that is high quality, decent grain/color matching, good length and fairly priced. I'm willing to pay for quality, but not for something that can't be noticed. (Is engineered ever graded as "clear" cut, etc.?) Has anyone tried "Brazilian Direct" or is it foolhardy to spend $6,000 plus on an online product? Any recommendations from installers and/or homeowners?

Thanks in advance. Tom

Stick with an American manufacturer. Canadian is Ok in siome instances.

The last shipment of wood I got from an internet company really sucked. I think it was seconds

Whaddya mean "Canadian is ok"???? Thems fightin words pardner, lol

Oh...sorry Dennis. Sometimes I forget your up there

I guess as long as they abide by the Canadian hardwood plywood association specs like the American version. I doubt LL does. Ya gotta ask and have them email it in writing.

http://www.chpva.ca/index.php?lang=2

Tom,

First off I am not a professional like the likes of the guys who have already commented but rather am just a consumer. However, possessing an analytical mind and being a sponge for knowledge I generally approach any significant purchase with an investigative research frame of mind prior to doing so. From my research Mirage and Lauzon are two Canadian manufactures that produce a great product and yes they are pretty pricey. My beef with them is that they are almost too "finished" and thus lack character/body.

Gemwoods came up as well because they have a number of lines, e.g., Pacific Treasures, California Treasures, etc. that are low-cost and a decent product. However, I would say their construction and finish leaves quite a bit to be desired so unless your budget dictates otherwise I would steer clear. You may want to look into the Garrison line of engineered. I believe they do have a Brazilian Cherry and Santos Mahogany and are priced pretty competitively. A step up from this would be Hallmark Hardwoods who's Exotic line includes both. The quality is top-notch and was on my short list for my purchase. In fact I do have a box of their Sapele still laid out in my bedroom and marvel at it's beauty. In the end though it just wasn't the look I wanted to lay down for about 1300sqft of flooring.

Lastly I would definitely recommend the BR111 Triangulo line which offers both of the wood species as well. The line also offers a couple of widths so that is helpful as well since it can define the look you are going after. Just make sure to stay clear of their 5/16 x 6-1/4" product that is marketed just under the BR111 name. It is their budget line and I have heard from more than one source it can cause problems due to the micro thin wear layer delaminating, etc. due to environmental conditions within the install location. Price wise it may be appealing but you would likely be taking a risk.

Mirage and Lauzon are full of shorts. It's always awkward when the old folks are walking through the house saying "why so many short pieces?" after someone spent 4 hours with them explaining why Mirage was worth the extra money

try Kahrs, European brand. does all it says on the box.

Check out BR111.

I am taking this thread in a different direction but I want to hear back from people who have had engineered wood floors for a number of years. As a contractor who deals mostly with solid flooring, and does a lot of refinishng, I am leery of "sliced" veneer engineered flooring. Many don't even know the difference between "sliced" and "dry sawn" veneers. My understanding is that sliced veneers are from logs that have been boiled so that the veneer can be shaved off, much like a rotary peeled veneer, but in a plain sawn orientation. Sliced veneers are generally 2 mm thick or less, and make up much of engineered stock. A few companies, Owens Plank Floor, Shamrock, Taylor, and Schafer to name a few, make a engineered floor that is a dry-sawn veneer, generally at least 3/16 or 4 mm thick. I have read on furniture forums that sliced veneers are more likely to check or split. Have people who know sliced veneer floors seen this over the years? These floors are often sold telling consumers that they can be sanded. Perhaps they can be and look good for short time, but will they start cracking or checking more then?

goddess here is a link that outlines each process. I do agree that sliced veneers have a weakness similar to lathe checks in rotary peeled veneers due to the overwhelming amount of force the flitch withstands when the its drawn across the blade. All thicknesses of veneers have the possibility of checking, in my opinion rotary has the highest instance.

http://realwoodfloors.com/pdfs/Why-Sawn-Cut-Handout-PROOF-1.pdf

But then you have the issue of unbalanced construction which arises when manufacturers slap a thick veneer on top of multiple thin plys. Balanced construction with a sawn face is what yer looking for. But don't even bother asking LL they have no clue.

Hi Tucson,

I looked at the info on your web site.
Hope you won't mind if I quote it here.
"Buying Properly Manufactured Engineered Wood Flooring: Checking, Splitting, Delamination and Humidification of Hardwood in Dry Zones

If you've been out shopping for engineered you may have noticed a large difference in pricing structure of engineered floor. ... Mainly this is due to the amount of layers, 3-ply 4-ply etc.,, thickness of the top veneer or exotic species. But particularly the foreign made versions are much cheaper than U.S. manufacturer's.

One of the main reasons besides cheap labor is the construction of the material. Many foreign manufacturer's do not manufacture to our U.S. Standards.
The HPVA (hardwood plywood veneer association) set standards for the manufacture of hardwood plywood which engineered hardwood flooring falls under that standard which is ANSI/HVPA EF 2002. (Posted bottom of article)

There are engineered manufacturers that recommend the use of their product only where the environmental conditions are within a specified relative humidity range, typically from 35% to 50 – 65%. Note that these are the same as with solid wood. When issues arise, particularly those associated with delamination, claims have been denied because the recorded humidity was above or below the recommended range. Both NOFMA and the HPVA (Hardwood Plywood Veneer Association) feel that properly manufactured engineered flooring should not delaminate under normal environmental conditions associated with any area in the USA. This includes the desert southwest with typically low humidity and the gulf coast and southern coast with typically high relative humidity.

Many of these foreign made engineered floors are simply not manufactured to the HPVA standard using improper adhesives and or manufacturing processes.

My advice to my clients is to stick with a name brand manufacturer and one that is a reliable U.S. manufacturer that states their product is made to U.S. standards. Now many manufacturers will try and deny a claim as I have witnessed before doing inspections due to low relative humidity in the home. However this is closely attainable using a humidifier. Small checking of the finish and very small splits might be noticed in environments with low Rh. This also has a lot to do with the species as exotic species from rain forests are more sensitive. But absolutely no delamination should be seen..

You will not win this claim trying to fight a manufacturer in China or other country's that do not adopt a similar standard as written below. If you read all this you will find that engineered wood is not to be affected by indoor environments no matter where it is installed. The material can be flooded three times, dried three times and have minimum delamination and THEN ONLY AT THE EDGES... how about them apples?

The American National Standard for Engineered Wood Flooring, ANSI/HPVA EF 2002 3.5 Bond Line – All adjacent surfaces of each ply shall be uniformly and securely bonded. The flooring shall conform to the requirements of the bond test described in 4.2 3.7 Construction – The flooring pieces shall be of balanced construction, which means that they are free from warp or twist to the extent that they do not interfere with the installation or negatively affect the intended use of the product. The purpose of this requirement is to provide a product which will perform satisfactorily over the typical range of humidity and temperature in an indoor environment, when installed according to
the instructions of the manufacturer. Any construction with an even or odd number of plies, and any combination of thicknesses and shrinkage characteristics that meets the requirement for balanced construction is permitted. No two adjacent plies shall have coinciding openings greater than 12.7 mm (1/2 inch) 4.2 Bond Line Test – Two test specimens, 50.8 mm (2 inches) wide by 127 mm (5 inches) along the grain, shall be cut from each flooring sample tested. The specimens shall be cut from opposite sides of the flooring after all tongue and groove portions have been removed. The specimens shall be submerged in water at 24 C+-3C (75 F +-5F) for 4 hours, and then dried at a temperature between 49 and 52 C (120 and 125 F) for 19 hours,
with sufficient air circulation to lower the moisture content (based on oven-dry weight) of the specimens to a maximum of 8 percent. This cycle shall be repeated until all specimens fail or until three cycles have been completed, whichever occurs first. The flooring shall be considered as failing when any single delamination between two plies of either specimen is greater than 50.8 mm (2 inches) in continuous length, over 6.4 mm (1/4 inch) in depth at any pint, and 0.08 mm (.003 inch) in width as determined by a feeler gauge 0.08 mm (0.003 inches) thick and 12.7 mm (1/2 inch) wide. Specimens shall be examined for delamination at the end of each cycle. Delamination due to tape at joints or inner plies or defects allowed by the grade shall be disregarded. For performing the bond line test, the flooring samples shall be selected in multiples of ten in order to provide for a sufficient number of specimens (two specimens per sample) to which the acceptance levels are applied. Ninety-five percent of test specimens shall pass the first cycle, and eighty- five percent of test specimens shall pass the third cycle."

I have seen much less of the balanced construction type of engineered that you mention. I am just curious as to what issues their are with the "7 layer baltic birch" type base vs a balanced construction, as it seems the first is more common around here, and dry-sawn is not easy to find. Any examples that you have experienced? I appreciate your time in responding. Thanks,

Thank you for quoting my website!

Seven ply's with a thin 2 or 1 mm bottom with the plys inbetween generally all the same thickness can be construed as balanced construction . Like I said the problem is when people put a 6mm layer on top of six ply's that are one mm. But why so many ply's?

Then they act like the more ply's the better quality the wood, not true and they try and charge more for more ply's. My old Bruce engineered circa 1985 is three ply 3/8. Lately I have seen more manufacturers coming out with balanced conctruction like that. Oh here's one, seen more of this as well:


http://www.flickr.com/photos/13772863@N08/5054954045

Why so many ply's I ask? To me back in the day it seemed like a contest to see who could cram more plys into a half inch of material. And Baltic burch? Why not use the same wood species for the rest of the construction if the baltic burch is on top then fine.

What I hear Stephen saying is that he likes the balanced 3 ply. Okay. But once again: I have seen much less of the balanced construction type of engineered that you mention. I am just curious as to what issues their are with the "7 layer baltic birch" type base vs a balanced construction, as it seems the first is more common around here, and dry-sawn is not easy to find. Has anyone had issues?

Sam I think you should be able to answer his question about the birch backer.
I like the 3 ply 3/8" inch products and they are getting harder and harder to find these days. I really think its mostly a cost issue with most manufactures, the bulk of the cost is in the veneer so common sense tells you thinner is going to be cheaper. Ive sold quite a few of those 5/8" sawn face unfinished product with the birch backer and they all have been preforming well to my knowledge (no calls means no problems). I actually prefer a site finished floor and push the 5/8 unfinished when the budget allows them. What's hard to overcome is the shitty stigma cheap eng. floors has given.