Good day to you gentlemen,

First I would like to thank all of you in advance for your time. After reading several of the topics already posted, I decided to just start one for myself. The questions asked were met with swift and sound responses from some very knowledgable men, and hopefully I can benifit from some of the same advice. Again I would like to say thanks. Now onto the meat of the stuff...

Alittle backround about myself and the job. I have been working as a carpenter now for about 10 years, breaking in as a remodeler then a production framer. For the last 3 years or so I have been working with for contractor doing all kinds of odds and ends, Framing, trim, tile, prefinished hardwood, all mainly in new construction. Most of the homes we built where in the 1800 sq foot to 3400 sq foot range in develoments near Youngstown, Ohio.

Late last year, my little sister and her husband asked me to build them a home. Now while they both do very well for themselves, money was still an issue. Of course they wanted alot more than they could afford, but I told them that I would help them out where I could. To make a long story alittle shorter, they hired the small company I worked for to do the shell and mechanicals with me overseeing the job. Then I would finish the house myself with whatever help I could get from my sister and her husband.

Things are going very well, and we have gotten to the flooring...

The kitchen, laundry room, foyer, and all the baths are tile. The two upstairs bedrooms are carpet. The master bedroom, office, formal dining room and living room are hardwood, about 1100 sq ft.

I've never liked prefinished...to me its as bad as putting down laminate, but I've also never done an onsite finished job before. Soooo this will be my first. I'm about half way done with the install, 2 1/4 white oak strip flooring (the real stuff, only 3/4 here please) from a very reputable local sawmill. Its laying like a dream...this without a doubt will be my nicest floor to date...So long as I don't screw up the finish. And thats the thick of it right. Did I mention they wanted more than they could afford?

So after the install, I need to sand and finish..two things very new to me, with no one to lean on. I have seen some awful jobs done by people that did not know how to use a drum sander. I'm thinking of steering clear of one of those as well. The floor is laying very nice and needs little to no leveling up. So I was thinking of renting an orbital for dummies sander and giving the floor a quick hit with 36 grit, then moving to 80 grit, then to 100 grit. I plan to vac in between sands, and wipe the floor with a damp rag at this point to open the pores some and to raise the grain. Then one last sand with 150 grit real quick to smooth it back up. Am I on track so far?

Now the tough part... I need an easy to apply finish that will not cost an arm and a leg as the floor is about 1100 sq ft...the whole reason I'm doing this is to try and save them some money. I have heard alot of good things from you guys about traffic, but I'm unsure of the cost and application. I plan to stain the floor English Chestnut, from MinWax...unless you guys can point me to a better stain that looks the same.

I guess the biggest thing I need is a kick in the right direction on the finer points of some of the finish options I have. Keeping in mind ease of application (where most mistakes come from) and cost.

Now that you've read all that (goodness I'm long winded), I hope you can find a little time to help me out...one last time. thanks for your time

Bill

OK Bill,

I'll give you a few tips and perhaps some others can chime in as well. As to the sanding, I'm not sure exactly which machine you plan on using. I know you say orbital but there are a few designs out there. The kind most of the posters here have had pretty good results with are these types:

* The U-Sand. It has four independent orbiting/rotary heads to which the user attaches sanding disks. It supposedly gets very close to the edges.

http://equiprentinc.com/generalrentall/ ... p?id=43552

* The other type is an oscillating/orbital machine called a square buff. There are different brands but here's one from Clarke. It use a larger single sheet, 12x18, of sandpaper.

http://www.americansanders.com/Products ... BS-18.aspx

Both of these types will sand a floor but it will be slow compared to a drum/belt floor sander. But you will have less chance of screwing it up. If you have end butt overwood and side overwood, it will be slow going. Try to get a model with dust collection. About your grit selection, if using one of these types, perhaps 30, then 50, then 80, then 120. THEN water pop EVENLY and allow to dry completely. I do not care for Minwax stain. It is watery and slow drying. But it's cheap. You can use it but allow at least 72 hours to dry. As for a finish, go with a quality oil-based polyurethane. They have the most "bang for your buck" and are easier for the novice. One top quality brand is Fabulon. It can be rolled. Dura Seal does not roll well. I do not roll my finishes but use a 10" Padco pad for smaller and cut-up areas. For larger areas, I prefer to T-bar. Some use a lamby wood block with a synthetic cover. Shoot, I've even seen old timers brushing on finishes with 6" floor brushes. You'll need (3) coats minimum and allow each coat to dry thoroughly before buffing with either a 220 screen or maroon "in between coats" pads. Then you'll need to vacuum and tack well before applying the next coat. Good luck.

Gary has given you some solid advise, Sanding is TOUGH, and very easy to screw something up beyond belief. I have had helpers who said they had 1-2 years experince completely ruin floors that I had stop them and fix things....


Around here rental costs of the belt/drum sanders are 100 per day, edger 50 per day, and buffers at 35 per day. By myself I could sand 250-300 ft per day (and I sand for a living) so youre costs are @ 180 per day/1000 feet =4 days we will call it 5 days for you, so thats 900, add in another 100-200 for paper, 100-150 for stain and rags, 100 for cheap poly, or 200 for good poly (700 for traffic) and youre at 1500-2000 plus all of your time, I suggest you use your contacts and find someone to sub the job too

OH guys... I just had a nice response all typed out, chock full of more great newbie questions that you have answered a hundred times or more...and I lost it all when I hit preview, oh well...here goes again.

My thanks to you both for your responses,

I have fears of subbing the floor out to a local contractor, the only two I know of in my area do sub-par work, and I feel with alittle paitence I could do better. This is not meant to say there might not be a high quality finisher here, I just do not know of one. Finishing is an art that few learn, and even fewer go on to master it. I have no false illusions that I might fall flat on my face with this one, but I still think that I should at least try. The time it would take me to find a finisher would be high, and I would more than likley end up looking in Pittsburgh...about 50 miles from here. Cost for quality work is something I'm afraid I cannot pay at this time.

My rental costs should be fairly low, as a local rental place and I are on very good terms and I get a hefty break on most things from there.

Now if you gentlemen please, a few more questions from yet another hopefull rookie.

On water popping and sanding-
I will be renting the squarebuff, not the U-sand. My overwood is minimal, I took alittle extra time in subfloor prep (something my old boss would have lost his top over), and the flooring could not have been milled nicer. Before sanding, if you where to run your hand across the floor, you might catch your skin alittle on every 8th or so board. Your suggestions on grit selection make alot of sense, but I have a few questions on water popping. I should not lightly resand after water popping to knock the grain back down? Does resanding after water popping defeat the purpose of doing it in the first place by closing the pores back up or clog them with dust? Will screening between the poly coats knock the grain down, should I make sure I screen, or is a maroon pad enough for this? I had planned to wipe the floor very evenly with same type of lint free cloths I was going to stain with, is this ideal?

On the Finish itself-
I am going to assume that all oil based poly's amber, do some amber less than others? Have any of you seen a rolled finish compared to a t-bar, how would you rate it? Is there a noticable 'orange peel' effect with the rolled? I have done a good bit of painting, but have never used a t-bar. Like most things, I would reason that it takes some practice and a decent amount of thought and skill to use (and use it well that is). I think I might not have as much luck with it without some good old fasioned hands-on guidance, things like starting, stopping, lapp marks, some one to take it off me when I start over working the puddle...Film build up, thin to win? Are there other problems with minwax stain other than obscene drying times?

Well, I think I missed a few that I had on my first edition, but this will have to do.

Again thank you very much for your time,
bill

Well I have never used a square buff sander, or a usand, So I do not know how aggressive they are. With my hummel on a brand new floor I cut the floor with 40-60-100, and on the edger I 60-100 it. Im sure you would have to adjust the grit sequence because of the lack of the aggresiveness of the square buff sander. But I would keep the edger in the higher grits. If its a new floor there is no need to use such a rough grit on the edges 50 at the lowest, I can get a floor flat and nice with 100 grit on the edger, but Im not going to recommend you try that.

English chestnut is dark, I would hand sand or use a random orbital sander with the same grit you did your final sanding with to get the edger marks out (just be sure to keep it flat on the floor, If you tilt it and use the edges of the sander you will have other issues that you dont want, I would also water pop the floor)

you have a few options on water poping,
A. you can wipe the water on evenly with a rag, making sure to cover every inch, If you dont you will see it as soon as you start staining.
B. use a garden sprayer and quickly MIST the floor (one section at a time) then use a broom/vacum wand ect wrapped with a towel and walk around the roomdragging it behind you to even it out.

If you sand after poping you are defeating the purpose, with an oil based finish you wont notice the grain raise, water base its more noticeable and should be addressed.

I have given up using screens in between poly coats, I use the maroon pad with a strip of 180-220 paper on it works very well doesnt take much finish off at all (tack the floor a few times between each coat and you should have minimal debris in the finish to begin with) Good vacunimg is also key.

As for the stain, Im against minwax also, It wasnt made for floors IMO, there are brands out there made specifically for floors (dura seal, bona ect) As a first timer I would avoid the quick dry ones though. one can of stain covers aproximatley 800-1000 feet and is only 10-20 more per gallon. A small price to pay to have products that are easier to work with.
Poly is the same way, Ive never heard of falco, but I do trust garys judgement. I use polo plaz primero its 2x the price of alot of polys out there, but I have had noting but great sucess with it every time I have used it. It was the other times with the inferior products that gave me greif.

Rolling is one of the easier methods of applying the finish, t-bar takes a little practice to get the hang of it. With a quality poly you wont see an orange peel effect (because of all the leveling agents).