Does anyone know the proper method of removing chatter marks from hardwood flooring? Also, the lap lines of the finish (Synteko) are all visible. We were told that this will go away after it cures, is this correct?

To bring everyone up to date - It has been over 4 1/2 months now and we're still trying to get our 1850 sq. ft. of Owens Unfinished Brazililan Cherry finished correctly after 3 different contractors and the 3rd attempt! This has undoubtedly turned into our own personal nightmare!!!

The first attempt was just poor worksmanship all the way around. We then interviewed 6 new/different contractors to try and resolve the first problem and they all agreed - as many of you who answered my first post here did - that is could not be fixed and was a redo.

We hired a second contractor, after checking references, etc., that has over 20+ years experience and he seems/seemed to know what he was doing. Although the process took much longer than we agreed to - 3 weeks total compared to the week we initially agreed to - it seemed everything was going well. Untill, final inspection. We had what appeared to be lines/waves that ran accross the grain of the wood over the entire surfact area of the floor! Our contractor said it was probably the roller he used for applying the finish and that he'd come back in and rescreen and recoat and that would take care of it. We came back in for another inspection and it obviously wasn't the problem becuase all the same marks/lines were still there.

We discussed this issue with our flooring distributor/retailer and were told that they were most likely "chatter marks" from a defective drum sander. We asked if the fact that our floor in an unfinished engineered product (Owens BC) laid down with their "plank loc" system could have caused this problem because it virtually is a floating floor. They talked to the manufacturer (Owen's) and said that no, that shouldn't have cause the problem it was again the sander.

Our second contractor brought in a couple of other flooing "experts" in for their oppinion and it was determined that the floor would have to be completey taken back down to bare wood and refinished again - for the 3rd time.

Since our 2nd contractor determined his machine was malfuntioning he sub-contracted the job out to another finisher. So now we're on our 3rd attempt at making the floor right. We were told the "3rd time's a charm" - and so we were hoping.

Unfortunately, the 3rd time wasn't a charm as we still have the same problem. In fact, when I came in to look at the floor after it was stained - yes, we ended up having to stain our BC because it had such an extreme variance of coloration - I was still able to see what I thought were the chatters. Unfortunately, the 3rd finisher didn't agree with me, got a bit defensive and said he's never had a problem with a bad sand job yet and I was imagining things. Well, come final inspection time again - the problem is still there!

Our flooring distributor/retailer sent their rep out that afternoon to look at the floor and he dertemined that indeed they were "chatter marks". He said that to get rid of them the floor should have been sanded on a 45 degree angle twice - once in one direction and in the other.

Please Help!! We need some advice fast as we're beyond the breaking point!! First - what is the correct method for removing the chatter marks and then second how does one keep the lap marks from showing in the finish? We have a 60+ ft run in one section that goes from the beginning of one room all the way to the end of the other - quite dramatic if finished well - just awful when not!!

Thanks!

Jamie

P.S.
Does anyone know of an indepedent flooring inspector in the Chicago, IL area? We live in Lake Villa, IL a far north suburb of Chicago. Thanks!

call the NWFA.
NWFA.org
WoodFloors.org
or
NOFMA. there is one guy up there who is NOFMA certified as well.
NOFMA.org

Enjoy. Expect to pay 800 to 1200 on inspection.

What is it about wood floors and Chicago? Seems you folks there have had some difficult times with wood floors.

As a member of the NWFA and a flooring installer/finisher for over 25 yrs. I think I can answer your question First, there are two kinds a repetative marks that can sometimes happen on wood floors and they are caused by different reasons. One kind is "chatter" which are rows close together, about one inch, of undulations, usually visible from a low direct light source. These are most often caused by an out of adjustment DRUM sander, or the paper being loaded improperly. The other kind of undulations are called waves and are further apart, 6" to one foot or so. These can be caused by multiple reasons. Not angle cutting the floor, uneven substrate, out of round drum, out of round wheels, defective drive belts, etc. You get the picture. In all cases, these floors should be hardplated OR sanded with a multidisc sander to eliminate chatter or wave. I got to say, while B.Cherry is hard wood, it produces an nice flat looking floor when sanded properly. I've sanded thousands of sq.ft. of solid B. Cherry and it always looked nice and flat. In some ways, easier to produce a nice job than with oak. This is because of the uniform density and texture. Sanding oak is like sanding two different woods as the spring grain and summer wood vary so much in density. Softer wood always sands more and faster. Anyway, I digress; back to your floor. After three sandings, how much wood is actually left anyway. I'd want an answer to that question as well. If I was brought in to resand this floor, I'd sand it with 60 grit at a 30 degree angle in both directions with my Hummel belt sander. Then I'd 80 grit, after edge sanding, in the direction of the boards. After that, I'd either hardplate with 100 or use a multi disc sander like a TRIO, followed up by screening with 100. You should be good to go after that. If one keeps sanding in the same direction, the existing waves just get worse, not better. It's possible to sanding this with a oscillating plate sander that would also produce flat results. As for the finish, to finish large areas without lapping, you need two finishers working in tandem so there is always a wet edge. Perhaps use a slower drying finish like OMU. Waterbornes on large areas can be difficult to blend together

Dang Ray, for $1200 I'll fly up there and inspect it too!

Thanks Gary and Ray,

They're definitely "chatter" marks as they are very close together. After 3 sandings we have just enough wood left for one more and that's about it!! If they don't get it right this time we're out of options and we lose the floor not to mention a very large sum of $$$$!!

It seems we've had nothing but issues since we got the floor. It appears to be a #1 common variety and it was supposed to be select and better. This has been a universal oppinion of all the contractors that have had a chance to see the unfinished product. All the finishers have commented on how soft the wood seems to be especially since it is BC. One of the gentlemen that came to inspect the floor after the first episode of chatter marks (he was brought in by the finisher for a second oppinon) owns his own milling company that manufactures hardwood floors and he doesn't feel it is true "Jatoba". However, I digress......and with that being said we decided to salvage the floor since they had already laid about 800 sq. ft. by staining it and it looks much more like it should.

So, we've only got one shot left at getting rid of these "chatter" marks. Gary, you mentioned that you'd start sanding at a 30 degree angle in both directions. We were told by the distributor, Erickson's in Chicago, to sand at a 45 degree in both directions. Is there a huge differnece in doing one over the other? Is the fact that it's an engineered floor, or the fact that it's installed on "planc loc" and is actually a floating floor a factor?

Also, all 3 times the floor has not been able to be finished without the lap marks. Am I correct in assuming that they will not disappear once the finish is cured? You mentioned that they need to keep a wet edge and you need more than one person doing it in tandem. Could you explain that in a little more detail? Also, they used Synteko to finish - does this make a difference?

I know it's a lot of questions - but no one is invested (both literally and figuratively) in this floor as we are and we feel we need to well informed to hopefully make the right decision.

Thanks again for all your help!
Jamie

Sanding the floor at a 45 degree angle is radical but ok IF the operator knows what he is doing. If you do not want chatter, make sure the floor finisher uses a belt sander and not a drum sander. With belt sanders, the most radical angle recommended by the manufacturers is 35 degress and Lagler, manufacturer of Hummel sanders, recommends between 7 and 15 degrees. When I took the NWFA finishing school class years ago to brush up on my skills, Wayne Lee, of Clarke, recommended 35 degrees on problem floors. It is important that the sander/finisher understand how to level a floor and sand it without leaving chatter or wave. Hardplating or using a multidisc sander in your case seems mandatory. I can't comment on sanding an Owen's BC floor floated over their plank loc pad. I was dubious of this system and still am. I have sanded other floating floors without problems. Why you ended up with a #1 common floor is beyond me. Owen's plankfloor is a good product. Did someone sell you seconds? Who did you buy this material from? If you can prove you were swindled, I'd make them rip it out and start over. Just my opinion. About the finish, Synteko makes a few different finishes but they all dry fast. The finisher/s have to work fast on large, long runs to avoid lapping and to keep a wet edge. That's why, if your finishers are having a problem with that, I recommended a slower drying finish. An oil-based poly like Dura-Seal, Fabulon, Woodline, Lenmar, etc. will take longer to dry and have a longer open time which allows the finisher/s more time to blend areas together. OMU's aren't quite as durable and will amber over time but look great on BC. Whenever I have to finish a tricky floor layout, my finish of choice is always OMU because it is easier to use and I can produce a better looking floor. I'm not going to explain how two finishers work in tandem. That is just way too complicated to do, IMO. Better just to find someone who knows how to do this. Good luck.

The floor is vibrating. Use a TRIO or a Squarebuff or something similar.


This same phenom happens when a floor is nailed to an insufficient decking/framing combo.

That is a possibity that I had considered but there is no way to varify this without trying to sand the floor. In my posts, I had recommended hardplating, a TRIO, a Square Buff or a Clarke 3DS multi-disc sander after belt sanding to sand out the chatter/wave.

Thanks guys for all your help! As far as I'm concerned if we find a reputable, qaulified finisher that takes all the necessary steps and precautions outline by Gary and still have a problem - then the cause IMO is the floor intself due to the floating installation!

Does anyone know of a reputable, qaulified floor professional in the Chicago area? (Sure wish you were a little closer Gary!) I put a call into the NWFA but haven't heard back yet.

I thought about vibration as well, if that floor is ran a little tight and its starting to lift, could be worth exploring. Never did hear if the other contractors put a belt or drum machine on this floor.

Here is the NWFA's list of members in the Chicago area. It contains the names of inspectors, contractors, dealers, distributors and manufacturers.

http://www.woodfloors.org/consumer/find ... go&param2=

If I were in your shoes, I'd call one of the inspectors for an inspection and call three of the contractors for bids and a detailed proposal on EXACTLY how they plan on sanding the floor, which tools and finish they intend on using. Make sure you check references since Illinois still doesn't require licensing, a mistake IMO. Compare the inspectors report with the info given by the contractors then choose. Get everything in writing.

I believe they initially used a belt sander but I'm not sure. If that's the machine that uses a loop of sandpaper that's attached and run much like the way the tracks on a military tank, than that's what they used. I'm assuming a drum sander uses a round disk of sand paper?

Gary, thanks so much - you've been very helpful! We're making calls to the inspectors first thing tomorrow and will definitely be following your suggestions. Also, you mentioned that you would use an OMU finish - what exactly is that?

To answer an earlier question, we purchased the floor from Erickson's in Chicago. So far, they've been very helpful and accomodating - even agreed to take the floor back after the first 800 sq. st. were laid and we didn't like it. But, because of floor height constraints (everything was built to accomodate the thickness of the Owens product) we decided to try and stain a section to see if we could salvage it and live with it. It evened out the tone enough that it looked pretty much like the BC we were used to seeing and fell in love with. However, I still think the shipment we recieved was not representive of what we ordered and the samples I was given. I waited a year to get this floor due to the fact that they (Owens) lost their supplier and BC was scarce for a while. I believe we were the first order with their new supplier. IMO it looked to be like a lot of sap wood or new wood instead of heartwood.

After the 3rd refinish, Erickson's sent one of their inspectors out to take a look at the floor and they say there was nothing wrong with the floor itself and the fact that it's installed using the plank loc had no bearing on how the floor turned out. They believe it was the way the floor was sanded. Personally, I'm not so sure - afterall it is a "floating" floor and even though it's attached tight and solid to the plank loc the plank loc itself isn't attached to anything. We asked for specific instructions from the manufacturer on how to sand the floor after the 2nd attempt went bad and followed them to the letter only for the same thing to happen again.

*geez* I've always dreamed of having hardwood floors...........just never thought that dream would turn into the nightmare it is.

Again, we appreciate all the help and advice everyone has given us!

Why wasn't this floor glued direct to the substrate? If this floor has been sanded three times, all the life has been sanded out of the floor already. You may only have one, perhaps two more sandings left. I'm not sure who is at fault here because it seems so many different contractors have worked on this floor. I don't like the idea of the plankloc system and think it will not continue to be offered for long. Of course, I didn't sell Microsoft soon enough when they bottomed in 2000 either. About OMU. It means oil-modified urethane. Been around a long time. Smelly and takes time to dry but has a longer open time which allows it to flow better under difficult conditions than other floor finishes. Not as durable as the best waterbornes or acid cured finishes but can look great on BC and if you use a quality one, will wear quite well.

Jamie:
Please, I have one question which has nothing to do really with your writings:
How much per square foot did you pay for the BC and how much for the install?
Or do you just have a total of square footage and cost?
I'm just compiling some survey information. I'll give you my results as soon as you can get me these figures.
Thanks in advance.
Charlie Benghauser, Master Finisher
Delta Plus
Prescott, AZ

Floating Floor? HHmm, I don't think I would give any gaurentee on sanding and refinishing a floating floor installation. I've only seen one floating floor sanded and refinished, and it did have chatter marks. The rules outlined by NOFMA and NOWFA are for nail down. Unable to find standards for Floating floors............
No standards means an inspector/consultant must quote Manufacturer Specifications. Have you investigated the problem with the manufacturer?