Not sure what your experiences are but I do meticulous work and am having problems pop up with some of my floors over time. And the comon denominator is using water based finish over oil based stains.

I generally stain, seal with Bona or Duraseal dri fast sealer and then coat with Basic coatings or Bona water based products.

Unfortunately , some of these floors are having white line issues and also some adhesion issues when the floor is subjected to stress.

My solution is to inform customers that water based finish over stain requires much longer drying periods than just 24 hours . I'm also getting kind of sick of the Manufacturer babble so I don't usually care what their recommendations are seeing as how they typically blame us contractors for the laws of physics.

Hi Paul--
I wish I could help you with some specific info, that would shed some light on why this might be happening. My business partner and I have both been using Bona water-based products almost exclusively for 20 years, and have had no problems with them. When we go back for recoats on the five-year schedule, the floors are in good shape, and usually don't show any wear.

Bona has a training station near where I live, where they do the seminars. It's open all year round, and the local rep has told me that I can make an appointment to get hands-on advice about using any Bona products. They have test floors there, where you could duplicate what you're doing out in the field. That's the only thing I can think of to do, if you're close to one.

I let the Duraseal or the Bona stain dry overnight, and then come in and coat it. I used to buff the stain, but noticed that other companies didn't. When I asked Bona about it, they said it wasn't necessary. Water-based finishes form a chemical bond--they don't need the mechanical bond of scratching up the floor.

I have not used Basic Coatings, so I have no experience with their products. You're saying that this is happening with both Bona and Basic, so I can see why you are thinking that the problem has to do with water-based products in general.

I prefer water-based mainly because my eyes don't burn applying it, and I have a clear head when I'm done with 1000 square feet. With oil, I feel like I've had two beers, even with a respo on. The products hold up well for my customers. So what I'm saying is that I have a strong incentive to keep using water products, and I'd be pretty upset if I was having consistent problems with them. Even if you don't use them all the time like I do, you still want to be able to count on them if the customer requests them.

So far , I stain, wait one day and then seal .Then do one coat per day of whichever water based finish we spec out for the job.

And everything always looks perfect until in some cases , there is a season change, the floor shrinks or expands and then the poor bond between oil and water becomes apparent.

FOr the time being , I will be giving the stain a minimum of 48 hours to dry before applying anything on top of it no matter what Bona or Duraseal say.Because the weak link is getting water to stick to oil

After you stain, what material do you put down ? I'm just curious

I put on three coats of Mega. I'm going to check and see if Bona is recommending a sealer over stain--it seems like they've gone back and forth on whether that's better for build, or whether straight coats are better.

The coastal climate where I live is fairly consistent all year round, and that probably helps minimize stress on the finish.

Thanks for the input . At the moment, I'm planning to stop using oil based sealers (Bonaseal) , give the stain 48 hours to dry and then top coat with whichever water based product.

I had a talk with Bona tech support, and with my local Duraseal guy here. Both are saying that the stains also seal, so we can go to direct coats without using a sealer. However, the sealer is less expensive than the poly, and it does provide build, so that can be a good way to go. It means keeping two products on hand instead of just one, but it might be worth it.

Both also said that using oil sealers was a good way to get an oil-modified look to the stain, without having to use oil polyurethanes. You do the stain, then an oil sealer, and then clear coats of water. I was doing this when I had to match an existing stain with oil polyurethane (which is 99% of them).
The drawback to this is that the sealer doesn't dry the same day--it's tacky and can show black lap marks until it dries overnight, in my experience.

Good luck on the experiment with eliminating the oil sealer. If you don't need to match existing, then it doesn't make much difference if you use all water coats.

Both also said that using oil sealers was a good way to get an oil-modified look to the stain, without having to use oil polyurethanes. You do the stain, then an oil sealer, and then clear coats of water. I was doing this when I had to match an existing stain with oil polyurethane (which is 99% of them).
The drawback to this is that the sealer doesn't dry the same day--it's tacky and can show black lap marks until it dries overnight, in my experience.



tha'ts funny and ironci since industry and manufacture standards usually recommend the use on water over oil after 30 days.

when there is a failure they will blame you and using hybrid system.

on this topic though has anyone had an issue using waterbase finish over color putty?

had an issue twice..miss some mails so put some putty and coat pover it..the finish peels por turns white.

in 23 years never had an issue..I guess must have been doing more oil poly. dont know.

but it has happened twice now..not to me but one of my guys.

Hi James--
The Bona Dri-fast oil sealer was specifically made for use with water-based finishes, in my recollection, though it can be used with oil with no problems.

As for the 30 days--I'm thinking it's the opposite--that you need to wait that long to put oil over water, but the water can go over oil within days. (I'm talking about actual coats of polyurethane here, and not sealers.)

Concerning Color Putty--when I switched over to water finishes, I kept using color putty, and never had any call-backs. It was years later that I started hearing about other people having problems with it; white spots, mainly. I tried some Woodwise latex putties, and they just didn't work for me. I went back to Color Putty, and I still haven't had any trouble with it.

I usually buff it with a maroon pad to get rid of any "halos," and maybe that helps. It's an extra step, but on top-nailed floors, we can have a lot of filling to do before the last coat, even if we troweled the floor. Wiping each spot with a rag just doesn't cut it with that many nailholes--20 to 30 per square foot.

Sometimes, water based rejects the color putty beneath it. TO avoid that , I keep a spray can of clear enamel and spray it over the putty before i coat . The enamel dries in about 10 minutes and locks the color putty into the floor enough to prevent issues with the water based top coats

James wrote:



I wanted to put an update on this thread:


- See more at: floor-guys-used-oil-when-asked-for-water-options-t11386.html#sthash.uw1e8W42.dpuf

The above formulas have to do with putting coats of polyurethane on top of each other. They don't apply to putting water-based products on top of oil stains. That can be done in 2-3 hours, with Dri-fast or Quick-dry stains. That's the official line. As Paul pointed out, if you're having problems with water over oil, then it doesn't matter what the official line is. You'll do what you have to do to get the products to stick.

I'm glad you updated . At this point ,m when I stain, I give the floor 48 hours before I add waterborne sealer. I stopped using oil based sealers altogether unless the product is requested by the customer.

But basically, Bona's recommendations mean nothing to me when in the real world, customer's are having trouble with finish delamination or white lining. So it's up to us contractors to test things ourselves and then make our own formulas that we know work.

So my new process looks like this :
1.Monday- sand and stain
2.Tuesday-leave alone to dry
3.Wednesday- apply waterbased sealer with a microfiber roller
4.Thursday-buff sealer with 220 grit screen or equivalent.Vacuum ,tack and then apply first coat of water based finish
5.Friday-and apply subsequent coats of water based finish

James wrote:


An update on this: my local paint store now has Color Putty waterbased colors. The oil-based putty has a red label, and the water-based putty has a blue one. I'm not sure my flooring distributor has gotten the new putty yet.