Hey all, I've seen you discuss various permutations of liability issues before. Now I have a situation as a homeowner with a 1 year-old installation of Lyptus in a 3-story, 100 year-old wood frame house. The house has a soft pine subfloor throughout, in some areas there was linoleum tile laid down over the wood. Wall-to-wall carpet had been laid over everything, pine and tile.
I hired a flooring contractor to come in, remove the carpeting and install a wood floor. Given my budget, they pointed me at 5/16" solid prefinished Lyptus. I knew nothing much about wood floors, aside from having lived on them for 40 years in all sorts of houses, from NY and PA climates down to steamy New Orleans. They sold me the wood last December, dropped it off in sealed boxes and installed the floor 5 days later. It took 3 days to do all 3 floors including carpet removal; I was so happy with the speed of the job. In February, nails started popping up through the wood, and the installer came out and hammered them down, and shot more nails into the floor in certain places. In April with lots of rain and humidity, the floor started buckling on all three floors. On my own initiative, I installed a big dehumidifier in the basement which made the air down there drier but didn't help the floors. The installers (subcontractors I expect) came back out and shot more nails in to force down the planks. A few weeks later, with the next rains, more planks buckled, in some cases next to renailed-down areas. I got the installer back out and he pulled up some molding to show me that there was still some expansion space, so maybe the problem was with the wood, he said. He nailed down the buckled areas again. At this point one of his employees who i think felt sorry for me mentioned discreetly that the thin Lyptus wasn't a great candidate for this treatment, because the nails were splintering the thin boards: he showed me an example. A few weeks later, more buckling. This time I asked that they remove some boards and relay them. They relaid part of one room, and a few weeks later it buckled. At this point, it became difficult to reach the installer. The more I researched on the www, the more I became suspicious that the installer had cut corners, just throwing down the wood over whatever he found under the carpet. I suspected that he hadn't accounted for the local humidity levels in the spring and summer. My wife recalled (and confirmed) that in the showroom, the wood was labelled as "glue-down-only" yet they hadn't glued the wood, they'd nailed it.
I finally went in to speak to the owner. He told me that the "glue-down-only" was not important to me, that it applied only when he sold the wood for installation by another company, because he couldn't guarantee their skill level. His own installers knew how to do it right. Or something. He arranged for an inspector to come and take a look. The inspector's report stated that the buckling was due to "a site-related moisture escalation" which given the lack of flooding I take to mean "it got humid in the spring". The report recommended that I "control humidity to minimize cupping", which seems to mean, "keep the windows closed from February to October".
The owner has taken the position that the buckling is my problem, that there's something wrong with my house. He suggested I get a dehumidifier. I told him I had always had an oversized dehimidifier, and that buckling happened on the second and third floors as much as on the first. He suggested that I keep the house air-conditioned and sealed tight, and THAT is what drives me crazy. I've seen arguments on this board defending that point-of-view. At what point did it become OK for flooring installers to install hardwood in such a way that would only be compatible with constant humidity maintained with closed windows and HVAC? Did the guys who installed the wood floors in every house I've ever inhabited or visited, the floors that can handle the regional climate, did those guys all go extinct?
I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on the validity of the owner's position, as the seller of the wood, the provider of installation and the judge of conditions. This is on track to go legal, so I'd also be interested in any recs for flooring inspectors in the PA/NJ/DE area. I'll need my own inspection to bring to court.
Thanks for any wisdom.

Have any moisture test done now or prior to the installation? a 5/16 solid floor is a cheap unstable animal so Im not trying to knock your choice but it is a budget targeted product with limitations. Id say though if the product is specked to be glue down only and they staple it then the manufacture is going to deny the claim for that alone. Now on the installers side of things. Its impossible to know what kind of conditions the home will have 6 months down the road. Its the installers responsibility to make sure conditions are correct before installation begins. To insure the performance of said floor its the homeowners responsibility to maintain the " normal living conditions" that were found at time of install.
You say the floor is buckling is it lifting from the subfloor or are the edges curled?

I didn't do any moisture testing myself. Nor did the thickness of the wood raise a red flag for me. The moisture test done by the inspector came out as 9-12%, and his report states that NWFA "normal" is 6-9%. That was in October when the humidity was probably lower than at peak summer.
I have to disagree when you say "Its impossible to know what kind of conditions the home will have 6 months down the road." If it's January, you know that in 6 months, in my region, it's going to be hot and humid. If a homeowner is really expected to choose a time of installation to then maintain for the rest of the year, I'd have waited until midsummer to get my floor installed. I'd rather have gaps than buckling!
But I'd be surprised to find an installer who would say, "listen, before we do this, know that because it's January, it's going to always have to be January inside your house."

The planks cupped first before they buckled off of the subfloor. Until they buckled, I didn't know what the cupping meant.

He can "anticipate" but he cant be sure due to the fact every house/jobsite is different. You dont have to keep the floor the same year round, fluctuations are expected and are normal but you cant let it get unreasonably high or low and expect the product to preform like it should. Wood Floors are not inert they are hygroscopic, put them in an environment where an excess of moisture is present they will absorb the moisture until it meets an equilibrium. when floors take on moisture they expand, too much moisture introduced and they expand to the point where they buckle and heave from the subfloor. You said its hot and humid during the summer why in the world would you not want to run the hvac? the floors you have such fond memories of were a whole different animal, most likely solid 3/4x 21/4 unfinished oak with a wax finish. Those can handle alot more fluctuations in r/h and moisture content. the most stable piece of wood is a a square block cut it thin and wal la you have the potato chip effect. I'd hold there arse to the fire on glue down only part. not following manufactures guidlines is a big red flag and he better be good to get out of that one. thats about the only real leverage you have imho.

glue down only id for eveyyone else and not him?...lol

I guess when he has a 4 hour erection from Viagara, he shouldn't go to the doctor?
and smoking is not harmful to his health?LOL..
that's one of the better ones I have heard..it's so dumb that it's too funny..

the buckling is definitely due excess moisture, but the faulty install is making the degree of moisture change more damaging.
..that is my guess..the 5/16 can only nailed with brad/finish nails or small thin gauge staples..
tongues will probably split..thus insufficient holding..put an obstruction somewhere in expansion and
the floor will come up easily.

time of cupping from install, season, floor it began on...subfloors they went over are all part of this equation.

go to NWFA consumer site..believe it is NWFA.com..you can get an inspector there..usually
cupping is usually and most often due moisture underneath the flooring..

There are those times of the season where the temp is mild yet very humid. Thats the time the woods gonna move. No one can foresee that, but they should ask if you have a HVAC unit as many places do not. You should know your zone.
Like out west some people do not have hvac but have forced gas heat and in summer use an evaporative cooler that pumps tons of moisture into the house. I have one and I can actually hear the house groaning and creaking and I have lots of wood and large wood beams.

I wonder if he should have left some gaps in the floor. hmmmm

http://www.lyptus.com/documents/Propert ... rables.pdf

floormeintucson, that's a very interesting document. If I understand it, it says that Lyptus shrinks and swells significantly more than all the other listed hardwoods.
I wish the seller of the wood had mentioned shrinkage and expansion as a concern. As I recall, the only metrics discussed on the sales floor were the relative hardnesses of the various woods.

I thought you'd like that. Most people are only concerned with hardness. Hickory is hard too but moves like crazy.

Stephen,

I don't think gaps would've helped here at all.

the problem i think is in the holding of the nails...probably brads....the board changes dimension and the board pops

the species is only a fraction of the issue..

the installer isn't responsible for seasonal change, but he is responsible for the correct installation..

James, not so sure it's the fastener as the acclimation period. Or making sure the subfloor/underlayment was within 2% as the wood. We all know five days isn't nuthin for any acclimation period. I'd like to review the installation pdf of that manufacturer. Could be they spec'd it OK for gluedown for concrete. Every one I looked at so far on the net says it can be fastened down.

Who is the manufacturer, so we can see the documents?

It's Weyerhauser. I found at their site an installation document for the 3/4" variety, but not the 5/16". Actually, I'm having trouble finding anything about the 5/16".
The 3/4" document does say to maintain a relative humidity of 35-55%. Seriously? They should annotate that with, "Not suitable for home installation in PA, NJ, DE, FL, LA or AL except in airtight new construction. Requires continuous operation of HVAC."

Id have to almost agree with you on that statement.

I could have installed it, so it never buckled. Easy!

Just don't complain to me of the gaps I left during the installation, in each row, because it was acclimated to winter heating season and may test low on the moisture content, compared to what it is going to get to during the rainy spring.

If it was installed properly and fastened correctly, it would slightly compress during the summers and have gaps during the winter, in those regions where there is high humidity during the summers and the heating seasons dry things out a lot. Wide plank is not recommended for those regions, because of wide gapping, enough to disengage the T&G.