I've just installed 3/4 white oak (kitchen, foyer, LR, DR) - now I need to finish it. I want a rich, warm look. I've been reading this forum for weeks - researching. I am strongly leaning toward an oil based for the look and ease of application.

Ease of application becase I have a large area to finish with alot of cut-ins (casings I need to brush around) so to keep a wet edge with a water-based might be nearly imposible for me - otherwise I would consider water-based for durability, low VOC, and short dry/cure time.

So it was down to a OMU or Waterlox. I went to the local hardware store to see what they had. They had OMUs by Minwax, Zar, Cabot, and one type of Fabulon. They also had Waterlox and something called Gymseal.

The guy at the hardware store said "all the flooring contractors buy Gymseal". I thanked him but, still wasn't convinced. From the internet research I've done some people swear by Gymseal, others say you better off with a good OMU (does Zar count). But, on the other hand, I like the idea of Waterlox - penetrating, easy (albeit, more often) maintenance, rich appearance. I don't like the long dry time of Waterlox. I think most OMU would dry faster then the waterlox - that's a plus. One guy told me to use OMU and cut the first coat with naphtha or mineral spirits (I know it's illeagle) so the first coat penetrates better - makes sense to me though - afterall that's one of the reasons why waterlox sounded good - penetration.

The reasons I an hesitant to just put down a OMU is the lack of flexibilty of the finish. I don't want to see cracks develope in the first few years in the high traffic areas - kitchen and foyer. I friend of mine put OMU down in his kitchen (red oak) and is starting to see cracks under his chairs.

Gymseal and Waterlox are both suppose to be more flexible than OMU - which helps them to be more durable - just like the good water-based polys have some flexibility to them.

So, from everything I've read, Gymseal seems like a good choice. Can anyone relay any first hand experience with Gymseal or explain why a particular finish strategy (OMU, waterlox, water-based) is best for my situation I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks.

There's lot's of ways you could go here. Such as:
1) A coat of Waterlox followed by 2 or 3 coats of OMU.
2) All OMU
3) A coat of Waterlox folowed by a two component waterborne urethane
4) A coat of BONA Dri Fast sealer followed by 2 or 3 coats of BONA Traffic
5) All Waterlox (4 coats)

The Waterlox system will be the EASIEST but smells to high heaven and is not that durable. Expect scuffing easily. To get the BEST of both worlds, try Waterlox as a first coat, allow to dry 3 days under ideal conditions, and top it off with 2 to 3 coats of a QUALITY OMU or TRAFFIC. Two component waterbornes are actually HARDER and show scratching a little more than a slightly softer finish like an OMU. Of the OMU's you listed, Fabulon would be my first choice. And no matter what finish you use, it can be recoated over with another finish once it's finally cured thoroughly.

Thanks for the advice Gary. I like the idea of the durability of the Traffic but, I may have trouble applying it (I have a large area with many cut-ins, I would have to keep multiple wet edges going).

Approximately, how much working time do you have with Traffic - how much time do I have until a wet edge starts to set up? This would determine whether I would do it in sections or in one continous coat - opinion?

Also, if I use Traffic, I would feel better using a Bona sealer product rather than Waterlox (I just think the Traffic will adhere better to a Bona sealer or stain).

In your experience, which Bona Dri fast stain would give a warm, rich look to white oak when used with Traffic?

I do have one final question - what's the story on Gymseal? From another post you replied to you had told the person to forget about using Gymseal. Is that because the product is no good. If so, why is it no good?

Thanks again.

Working time always depends on jobsite conditions. But waterbased finishes do set up fast and one needs to work very quickly. It's not a good choice for the "michaelangelos" who like to brush real slowly. All Bona stains can be mixed and thinned/cut with their natural. For me personally, since white oak can have a grey/green cast to it, I try to neutralize that by using a light stain color with some cherry (red) tones and some golden tones. So to get a nice light but still warm color, I'd try 4 parts natural, 1 part red mahogany and 1 part golden brown. That's a favorite of mine for white oak. About Gymseal. It isn't a polyurethane per say. It's a alkyd and phenolic resin mixture in a tung oil based liquid. IMO, it will scratch and scuff more readily than a two component urethane or even a quality OMU. In my neck of the woods, N. CA., no flooring finishers use it, no architects spec it, no contractors ask for it. I'm not saying it's a "bad" product, just IMO, there are better floor finishes available. And keep in mind, every manufacturer will say their's is the best. In reality, you can use anything you want to and all will work to some varying degree and ALL will scratch and show wear.

I don't understand

Gary, I've had very few durability issues with Waterlox. Could it be that we have a faster cure time here on my side of the Cascade Mts. far from the humidity of the coast (avg. 28% year round)???

I have to admit that I was a little dis-heartened by the phone call I had with them when they admitted that the product can take up to SIX MONTHS!!!! to cure.

Could the scuffing you've been seeing be due to the stuff taking it's own sweet time getting cure?

I've got story after story of durability from the Waterlox here ... so, I am searching ....

BTW ... with oak and harder woods, I've had successful results with 1coat of sealer/finish and 2coats of satin. Could too much build-up be part of the scuffing issues you've had???

On the softwoods (fir, larch, pine, etc.) I go all 4 coats.

BTW pt.II Oak looks awesome with 4 coats of the semigloss sealer only on floors and is what is used by a large dancefloor company in Cali. who specializes in dance floors ONLY(ballet etc.) throughout the state. They mainly do stages (operahouse, symphony, etc.) and ballet studios with parquet. They use Waterlox becouse symphony musicians tear them floors up pretty good setting up and tearing down and they've found Waterlox to be the least amount of maintenance. AND when (not if) the floors are gouged and scratched deeply, the waterlox had protected deep enough to not let the wood become damaged when (not if) the janitors flood the stage with wet mops.... Kinda like the damage we see alot of in front of kitchen sinks when we re-finish old floors that were done with glitza.

(do I sound like a Waterlox salesman yet??? )

William,

It's certainly a matter of preference. In 2000, I did 5000 sq.ft. of Carlisle Antique, Old Growth Heart Pine flooring. We stained it with Early American stain and after the stain was dry, applied four coats of Waterlox Original. Within a few months, the customer was complaining about the finish. I went out to view the floors and the finish was scuffed pretty badly. These scuffs couldn't be "rubbed" out like some urethane finished floors I've done. But the advantages to Waterlox are many:
1) ease of application
2) excellent moisture protection
3) ease of re-application
4) appearance

It is a very good finish, especially in situations of heavy commercial wear ( like your dance floors and stages) BECAUSE of it's ease of re-application and excellent sealing properties. But scuff easily it does, compared to a fully cured OMU or water based urethane. Let's face it, it is basically a tung-oil with alkalyd and phenolic resin additives. But those resins are NOT as durable as a urethane resin. IMO, in a residence, most people want a finish that requires the least maintenance. My customers do not want to wax or oil or have to re-apply finish to have their floors look good. Urethanes fit the bill for clients that want a low maintenance finish. Take a look at sports courts. Nearly all of them use a urethane finish of some type. Why? For superior scuff resistance AND superior slip resistance. I'm not sure how Waterlox compares to urethanes in terms of slip resistance, especially when they get wet from the sweat of ball players. In closing, I concide that the term durability has a pretty broad definition. It depends on the needs and expectations of the customer. That's why there is no single "best" floor finish.

True, true, mr. Gary.

I like good urethanes vs. h2o simply based on appearance ... i.e. doesn't look so much like plastic.

FYI ... the slipperyness of the satin Waterlox is due to the encapsulated bees wax that gives the tint. If anyone asks, I've discoverred that it is not so slick after about 6 weeks of cure. The sealer ONLY is what the dance floor guys use the sealer/finish only 'cause it has better grip.

In my thinking, one of the main drawbacks to me just using an OMU is the brittleness of the finish as it ages (correct me if I'm wrong). Invariably some of the floor boards can become loose - particularly in high traffic areas. Right now my floor is unfinished and there are some boards that move a little, vertically, and squeak/creak when you step on them. I have them marked to secure them before I finishing but, more may develope after the floor is finished. So, I am concerned that an OMU as it ages and becomes brittel would be more prone to crack and possibly peal with that movement than say a less hard finish like Waterlox or Gymseal.

I made some samples about a 10 days ago to compare waterlox and OMU. The OMU is rock hard, smooth and slick. The waterlox is still soft by comparision - I just wonder how much harder is will get as it continues to cure. I don't expect it to be as hard as the OMU.

William, when you put 4 coats of original waterlox on oak is all the grain filled? The sample I did still has open grain after 4 coats.

One more thing William, I do like the color with just the waterlox alone but, have you had any positive experience using a stain in the first coat to add a little more color. The white oak sample I made is mostly brown and yellow - I was thinking a little orange/red would add some warmth. Would you have any specific stain recommendation - as Gary had for using Traffic? Some of the test sample I made with waterlox and stain looked terrible.

What I'm considering doing, provided I can stand the smell, is to put waterlox down and see how it goes. If I can get 3 or 4 coats down without killing my family or myself either through the fumes or by burning down the house - great. If I don't like the finish quality I can always put down OMU over it - after it cures (how would I know when it is fully cured).

On the other hand, it is November and in PA it getting a little cold. Might not be the best time of year to put down waterlox onk what is basically my whole downstairs.

Maybe then an OMU would be better - faster cure time and less odor.

I have mixed oil based stain with Waterlox and found it works very well but the process was a headache ... but mainly due to a homeowner with decision constipation

Not all OMU's are created equal. Quality is a factor as well. If you can find it I recommend Fabulon OMU. It is my favorite all-round poly. (Unless you can get acces to some Resilliance "Brute" poly) For ease of application avoid anything that boasts "fast dry". Sloower dry allows the finish to help correct any rookie brush/mop work.

The issues you mentioned are basically why I like the Fabulon or Resillience. Definitely more expensive than anything you'll find at the depot but not much and way bettr quality. Both are manufactured in or around New Yourk state or just above in Canada so you may find it easier than we do here in the NW.

With h2o finish .... ever heard of pannelization (sp?) The stuff is so good and so tough sometimes to a fault. If you build up too much finish on top and your floor likes to move you may find that pannelization could occur.

Yes, on many Waterlox floors I get that grain appearance, HOWEVER, We use that as a positive. The floor is still very much protected from lifes little issues AND looks more like real wood and less like plastic. There are some clients in this world that know exactly what they are looking for and when they see what you are seeing it is exactly what they want .... make sence. Hence my earlier comment about not looking so much like a layer of plasic between you and your wood. I do agree that if that is not what you are looking for but like the rich color of the Waterlox then I might recommend A coat or two of Waterlox sealer followed by a coat or two of Fabulon. (on oak.... maybe 1 coat of WLX sealer and 2 Fabulon)

You will end up with deep protection and richer WLX color and ease of maintenance and deeper luster of Fabulon OMU and both are very flexible yet tough.

"Walk on eggshells" your first 30 days after final coat then you can put down area rugs if you wish and keep your shoes on more if you prefer. BUT no chemical cleaners first 30-40 days ... damp cloth only. (Come to think of it .... chemical cleaners, before a full cure on a finish, can result in ease of scuffing as well .... Hey Gary .... what are your customers cleaning thier floors with and how soon after your done????)



You posted:
"""On the other hand, it is November and in PA it getting a little cold. Might not be the best time of year to put down waterlox onk what is basically my whole downstairs.""""


Actually, I find that in the drier, cooler months a better time for finish work. Just more predictable to me. Heating a home is easier than cooling a home in the summer. Plus there are fewer instances where there is hot sunlight beating down on a floor through a large window ...
Just maintain 68-72 deg. temp and all will fall into place (most cases)

Have fun!!

Thanks for the info William.

So if I go the WLX + OMU route - how long do I have to let the WLX cure before applying the OMU?

Hey, have you ever used to low VOC WLX? WLX says they don't expect there will be any difference between the low VOC and the regular mix.

My guess would be that the elimination of about half the VOs may result in longer dry time and maybe cure time - it may effect penetration as well. Since the reason some used to cut OMUs for the first coat was to get better penetration.

When you refer to Fabulon OMU we are talking about the "Heavy Duty polyurethane" and not the "Original", correct?

Fabulon Heavy Duty Polyurethane
Derived from the latest concepts in polymeric chemistry. Exceptionally high polyurethane resin content assures maximum durability, excellent body and long lasting no wax finish - needs no waxing. Provides an easy - to - care - for "coat of protecting" on wood floors. Only the best polyurethanes are formulated for use on floors. Available in gloss, semi-gloss and satin luster.

Original Fabulon Fast-Dry Wood Floor Finish
The "twin" of the same type of clear coating used for years to beautify and protect bowling lanes against the constant battering of bowling balls and pins. Designed for application with brush or natural lambs wool applicator to bare wood floors only. Original Fabulon produces an attractive lustrous gloss finish with excellent durability and resistance to abrasion and wear. It dries in one hour and is easy to maintain... floors clean with water only-needs no waxing. It too, can be easily blend-patched if another coat of finish in heavy traffic area's as required).

I have not.

I know this may sond backwards...
BUT, every time I use low VOC urethanes I find them thicker and more "sticky" and a real PITA to apply. Real slow going and, unless you get used to it, more challenging (for me anyway) to get down evenly eapecially in the first coat. Some may say, "well I'll just thin it out with mineral spirits or naptha or something like that .... " that just opens a bag of worms... so unless you have a PhD in chemistry and have the proper equipment .... you get the point.

I may suspect that since the WLX is very thin that even if a LOW VOC version was used it may not be too thick to have that concern.


Wow ... us floor guys do wayyyyy too much thinking huh??

I know that Fabulon has a name for what may be on a shelf in a Sherwinn Williams for the public vs. what the name on the can may say at a hardwood supplier.

The cans I use have a powder blue and white can for gloss, yellow and white for semi-gloss, and brown and white for satin (my favorite).

"Professional Polyurethane - Heavy Duty Floor Finish - SUPER SATIN"

On the can in my lap currently...

Has "for professional use only" across the back.

I'm not sure if that is the same stuff in a different can on a paint store shelf. You know how political marketing can be ....

I've never used any other of thier products. I've heard that almost all of them are high quality.

Thanks for your help